I am mainly an indoor HO gauge modeler, but have always been fascinated by large scale and the detail that it affords. I am also only interested in old time steam.
One of the frustrations of modeling old time (19th century) steam in HO is a lack of quality 4-4-0's and especially 2-6-0's without having to resort to rare and expensive brass. About the only viable "Americans" are the mediocre quality "Golden Spike" models made by Bachmann and there simply aren't any accurate old time moguls.
While surfing EvilBay last week, I came upon an auction for one of the G scale Spectrum 2-6-0's lettered simply for the Baldwin locomotive works. Due to lack of interest or timing or the economy or whatever the bidding was low. I don't know what possessed me, but I popped in a bid and snagged it for just a few dollars over $200 including shipping. I'm guessing I got lucky and this was a rarity.
As of right now I simply plan on getting a length of track, building or buying a display case, and putting it on the mantle, but who knows.
As I looked around at other models, I did a search for the G scale 4-4-0's that Bachman introduced at the same time thinking I might find a bargain on one of these. There were only a couple and generally the prices were more than double what the moguls were priced at.. From one of the descriptions, I got the idea that Bachmann was discontinuing the 4-4-0 while continuing with the 2-6-0. Of course these two models are essentially the same construction---with the only difference being the wheel layout.
My question is why? Are the 4-4-0's simply not in demand in the large scale hobby market, and is it because they probably don't have the tractive capabilities of the 2-6-0? In real life prior to 1900, Americans far outnumbered the moguls on standard gauge railroads----maybe as much as 10 to 1. However, this may not be the case of narrow gauge. Could this be part of the reason?
Any thoughts on this?
JW: Since there are not anywhere near the number of "Larger Scalers" as there are "Smaller Scalers" and the general demand is oriented towards the larger engines rather than the smaller engines there will be fewer small American engines to choose from. European style smaller engines are a bit easier to get. In effect you pretty well answered your own question. Maybe Vic or Brian can chime in and give you a few tips on "bashing" some of the 0-4-0’s into a x-4-0.
Tom Trigg
ttrigg JW: Since there are not anywhere near the number of "Larger Scalers" as there are "Smaller Scalers" and the general demand is oriented towards the larger engines rather than the smaller engines there will be fewer small American engines to choose from. European style smaller engines are a bit easier to get. In effect you pretty well answered your own question. Maybe Vic or Brian can chime in and give you a few tips on "bashing" some of the 0-4-0’s into a x-4-0.
Thanks for responding, but I must have not made my question clear enough. I know there is a lack of old time HO gauge engines--especially moguls, and I always found it perplexing that this was not the case in G scale. For years large scalers had several old time moguls to choose from---LGB, plus at least two different Bachmanns, i'm aware of--maybe more plus a couple of 4-4-0's.marketed.
What I was curious about was why the big scale Bachmann 4-4-0 seem to be going away and twice as expensive as the Bachman 2-6-0 which is esentually the same mechanism.
Thanks. .
I think its is just keeping up with the times in the HO market. HO is the largest market and generally puts out more modern locos depending on what your definition of "modern" is. Modern changes with every generation.
Large scale on the other hand is a messy mish mosh of scales and gauges. While the spectrum line is nice it is the largest commercial scale at 1:20, far larger than G, 1:22.5, 1:24, 1:29 (the other popular scales) or 1:32. The spectrum 4-4-0's and moguls are nice but they are 3 foot narrow gauge. These engines were far more common in standard gauge yet you can't find them as such.
If a scale had been set early on and track gauges varied like in other scales, it would have far easier for the modelers and more profitable for the manufacturers.
-Brian
OK, I sort of get it. I didn't realize that there was a range of scales sort of grouped under G and that the engines I mentioned were the largests (scalewise of the the group) Man, it must get confusing.
I just received the engine I won on EBay today. It's absolutely gorgeous and I'm not sure I would want to run it outside. However, I now see that these engines are dated production or at least the one I got is. It came with a "VHS" tape of instruction and an order form for a 2000 edition of the Bachmann catalog. Maybe that's why some hobby shops are discounting these so much. I think the original MSRP was like $750
Also oddly, there were two Bachmann figures included--one of an engineer and one of a fireman, but it was obvious they were cast in two completely differnet scales. The fireman was about 20 to 25% larger than the engineer.
Oh well, I'm still happy that I now have a beautiful old time mogul to put on my mantle. I've already located an on-line shop that sells a case that is appropriate. Howerver, I got the engine so cheap that the case is going to cost me almost as much as I paid for the model going into it.
Aren't hobbies fun?
J W Bowker The fireman was about 20 to 25% larger than the engineer. Aren't hobbies fun?
Yep, that's "G" scale. A few of us (jokingly) call it "Gummy" scale/ruler (for the german word for rubber). The one GOOD thing in large scale is that all the "scales" Brian mentioned run on the same 45 mm rails. If your trains are 1:29 and you come over to my house to play (1:22.5), your stuff fits my rail system.
ttrigg Yep, that's "G" scale. A few of us (jokingly) call it "Gummy" scale/ruler (for the german word for rubber). The one GOOD thing in large scale is that all the "scales" Brian mentioned run on the same 45 mm rails. If your trains are 1:29 and you come over to my house to play (1:22.5), your stuff fits my rail system.
Hey ttrigg,
There are scale issues with HO also and in my case almost as insidious.
I started out with the plan to model the Virginia & Truckee RR from 1870 to 1890 which was pretty much the heyday of the Comstock load. This was back about 1987 or so and AHM/IHC/Rivarossi had models of three of the V & T's better known old time 4-4-0's and one 2-4-0 plus a lot of cars lettered for the V & T. I bought multiples of everything they made.. Then due to family requirements and the like, I got out of the hobby for about 20 years, but I kept all my new equipment carefully stored away.
After retiring 2 years ago, I got back in and pulled out all my pristine equipment. However, as I started to study the V & T seriously, I got several books with scale drawings of their engines and other equipment.
It turns out that all of these import engines that were sold as HO gauge and that I have saved all these years were actually made 20% over scale. In other words they are actually OO scale---or more correctly On30 since they run on HO gauge track. Now I'm in the process of selling or trading all of them off to acquire true HO gauge equipment, and there's the rub. There just isn't a lot of 1870's HO gauge stuff out there.
I thought about switching scales, but egad--it looks like G scale has its issue too.
Cheers
Of course G-gauge trains aren't alone in having odd scale/gauge issues. Ever wonder why O scale is 1:48, but HO ("Half O") scale is 1:87?? It's because O gauge track at 1.25" works out to 1:43.5 scale, or 7 mm = 1 foot. (HO is 3.5mm = 1 foot.) For O scale at least, that was all too confusing and "European" so we rounded it off to 1/4" = 1 foot, or 1:48 scale. So in US O scale, stanadard gauge track is 5 foot gauge instead of 4'-8.5" like the prototype.
G trains run on No.1 gauge track. (Marklin had gauges numbered 1-2-3-4 with 1 being the smallest. When they made smaller gauge track they called it 0 (zero) gauge, which came to be called "O" (the letter) gauge). No.1 guage works out to 1:32 scale which is moderately popular in Europe still.
LGB created trains using No.1 gauge track about 40 years ago, but using it to represent meter-gauge trains of Germany. This worked out to a scale of 1:22.5. When LGB hit the US, we again went with "close enough" 1/2" = 1 foot (1:24 scale) and pretended they were 3' gauge trains.
In recent years 1:20.3 has been used, that is the correct linear scale for using No.1 gauge track as 3' gauge track. Most narrow-gauge stuff made recently by Spectrum etc. has been to 1:20.3.
However even though they run on the same track, standard gauge 1:32 scale trains aren't as big as the narrow gauge equipment of course. Some folks wanted to be able to run both narrow and standard gauge cars together, so some companies started making 1:29 scale trains which are models of standard gauge trains but a bit oversize so the equipment looks better when running with 1:22.5 or 1:20.3 narrow gauge equipment.
My gosh, but that's conplex.. I hope there's not going to be a pop quiz later--lol
As I said I think that the engine I got is so pretty that i can't imagine running it outdoors I'd be afraid a bird would poop on it.
Below is a quick shot I took along with both an HO brass and an N scale plastic Mogul for comparison.. The're both models of a Rogers, but it's hard to distinguish them from the Baldwin.
I had some plastic G scale track from an old RC Bachman Big Hauler that we bought many years ago to run around the Christmas tree. It was kaput by the next Christmas, so it went up on a display shelf. This was also the reason that I probably passed on G scale at the time, but I understand the quality is vastly improved.
This new model is going on display also, but on the mantle in a place of honor and eventually protected by a glass case.
J W BowkerMan, it must get confusing.
To say the least.
I too own a Bachmann 2-6-0 Mogul, and I LOVE it! Probably one of the best locos I own, and I got a bargain as well! Not only that, but not too long ago, Ridge Road station, ridgeroadstation.com, was selling them brand new for $199, a friend bought one. I bought mine on ebay, new...used but not run, from an indvidual for about $180! It is a good as any $500 loco imho. It is beautiful, well made, well detailed, heavy, smooth running...a great narrow gauge loco. I put a DCC sound controller in mine, it works great! I just have to figure out how to wire he firebox flicker and smoke with mine since the DCC upgrade. I also own 3 Bachmann 4-6-0 anniversary editions, they are like 80% as good as the spectrum models and can be had for good bargains sometimes too. They have great metal running gear and trim pieces and nice motors. Their sound sucks, but the do have chuff sounds at least. Oh get this too...yesterday I picked up a discontinued 2-6-0 Bachmann industrial Mogul, looks like an LGB Mogul. I don't know much about them and have never seen on before. However, it has most, if not all, of the Spectrum features but I don't think it was a Specturm model. It looks great! I can't wait to check it out.
Oh, BTW, my Mogul is a Denver and Rio Grande(with VHS tape too..) and it looks just like yours, same color scheme and smoke stack. I have alos noticed the 4-4-0s are more expensive typically, I don't get either and I much prefer the look of the Mogul. Also, Hartland Locomotive Works (h-l-w.com) has a new improved 4-4-0 G loco on the market as well.
Regards, Ted
Get the Garden Railways newsletter delivered to your inbox twice a month