Metric System

[Anonymous]

No one was more unhappy than me when this country went to the metric system back in 1967, metric money and all but after 30 odd years i'm sold on it.

When I started to do the calculations for my Garden Railway I was amazed to find out how simple it made things and I would suggest that even non metric people look at the benefits and consider doing all measurements and calculations in this system.

For instance if you do your horizontal measurements in metres and your verticle in centimetres and divide one into the other the percntage gradient is automatic. Say you have a strectch of rail 23' or 7 m long which has to rise by 10" or 25 cm.

Thence 10"(25cm) / 23' (7m0 = 25/7 = 3.6 %, what could be easier

It is harder to do the conversion to metric than the calculation itself is true but just do the measurements in metric to start with, and voila your doing it easy.

I would be interested to hear what others think of this idea.


Regards


Ian; Kawana Island Tropical Railway.

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by iandor

No one was more unhappy than me when this country went to the metric system back in 1967, metric money and all but after 30 odd years i'm sold on it.

Ian,

For some strange reason America has never embraced the metric system. My brother is an automobile mechanic and his associates have all types of trouble with the metic tools.

I guess the metic system is to...European, for Americans to adopt. We measure distance in miles per Hour and the idea of kilometers per hour is sort of unusual. Same with temp, we like 100 degree heat and would be put off by the temp of the climate that showed its centigrade equal.

We in America have had a special admiration for Austrialia, but I think the myth and stereotypes are more engrained than the turer image. Let me know what the mainland is like, and thanks for holding on to General MacArthur during his darkes days.

By the way, I have a purple star. What does that signify?

[smcgill]

We as engineers are just seeing road plans in metric! (New England)Problem most places do not carry metric tape measures in the 100' + range! They will catch up I think!

[Anonymous]

I could not imagine using metric on a daily basis in the construction industry.
However alot of cabinet hardware and drill bits are metric and we use them.
I do however hate working on my cars, the old ones are U.S. standard and the new ones metric it just takes more tools.

[RhB_HJ]

Aaaaaaaaaah one of my favourite topics! (the other being "Scale vs Gauge"[}:)][}:)])

Well by the end of this month it will be 35 years that I arrived in Canada (from Switzerland). It was quite a culture shock to move from a state of the art, high-tech toolroom to the NorthAmerican industry.
Oh yeah, of course everything was in Imperial measures! I remember as clear as if it were yesterday the second measuring instrument I purchased; it was/is an Etalon 0-1" micrometer on which each turn is 0.1". None of that nonsense of missreading by .025"!
Now when it came to reading NA blueprints that certainly was an interesting learning experience. The biggest difference was and is that NA drawings have all kinds of written instructions/notes/reminders (unless they conform to ISO). European drawings give you the measurements, tolerances are denoted in the ISO format, special processes are noted with an ISO number. In short, why clutter up a perfectly good drawing with all manner of written stuff if one doesn't need to.

Yes the metric system is much easier!
I won't even get into the intricacies of how and why tolerances are designated in the Imperial system.

Once you get the hang of metric, you'll never look back. OTOH using the Imperial measures remains a challenge even for those who use them on a daily basis i.e. what's the decimal equivalent of 17/64" or 71/128".

And as I know from customers in the USA, metric measuring tapes are not as hard to find as they once were.
And no, automotive giant GM had no luck convincing the metric standards people that a 6.3mm bolt/screw would be a splendid idea. Yes, they tried! [;)][;)][}:)]

[RhB_HJ]

QUOTE: Originally posted by carpenter matt

I could not imagine using metric on a daily basis in the construction industry.
However alot of cabinet hardware and drill bits are metric and we use them.
I do however hate working on my cars, the old ones are U.S. standard and the new ones metric it just takes more tools.

Matt,

Yes and no.

The metric system has fewer steps in the sizing of the tooling ( Allen keys, open-end wrenches and sockets), but many of the mfgs delight in using special tooling for all kinds of gizmos. It drives the people in the trade just as nuts as the weekend mechanics!

[Anonymous]

It was a big headache for me to start with but after 30 years or so I've got used to it to some extrent, but somethings are still hard to visulise. It waqs even harder here as we didn't even have metric money 12 pence in a shilling and 20 shillinbgs in a pound not easy dollars and cents as we have now.

I used to be 5' 8" tall now I think I am 1.7 M and what about buying milk in lots of 300 millilitres instaed of a pint. But the hardest is puming my tyres (tires) up to 250 hectapascals instead of 32 lbs/sq".

As far as HJ is concerned it seems you went through just the opposite to what we did 30 years ago and it isn;\'t easyat first but well worth it in the end.

Tp Cpt Carreles I think having a Purple Star means you are a very decent and brave man. It would also indicate that you are an old digger (veteran) and good luck to you, as I have a long memory as well to do with our countries combined wartime tribualtions.

However taking into account the irreverence of some Australians, in some parts it means you haven't got Mobey *** and that you are immune to it.

Good luck mate.

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by iandor


However taking into account the irreverence of some Australians, in some parts it means you haven't got Mobey *** and that you are immune to it.
Good luck mate.

I assume you are talking about those fellows in your parliament that “railed” President Bush. I think it is just a culture shock. You see, if you have satellite television and you need to get some sleep please tune into “C-Span” and let the US Congress (the Senate and/or the House of Representatives) lull you to sleep.

I have seen the British Parliament and some of the Australian Parliament and it is far livelier than our Congress ever could get.

But, it is there that I will stop since I normally save my political rants for political forums and do not wi***o taint this pristine environment with the stench of political disagreement and fighting.

I would, however, like to learn more ‘bout Australian culture as well as railroading.

Y’all take care!

[RhB_HJ]

QUOTE: Originally posted by iandor



As far as HJ is concerned it seems you went through just the opposite to what we did 30 years ago and it isn;\'t easyat first but well worth it in the end.

Ian,[;)]

Well learning the Imperial bit to the ninth was certainly interesting and as the saying goes: One never stops learning.[:)]

Matt,

This may seem odd but to this day I measure most wood projects in inches. Something to do with the "happy mess" where the thickness of plywood is Metric but most other dimensions are still in inches.[:0][:0]
And in the garden I work with a 50ft measuring tape that has both metric and inches.

[cacole]

Having been in or working for the U.S. Army for 42 years, where maps were all in metric measure, and driving in Germany for six years, I found metrics to actually be easier to deal with than the mish-mash of inches, feet, tons, gallons, and other measures as used in the U.S. and Great Britain. Even between our two countries, the measures are not the same. A British Imperial Gallon and U.S. Gallon are not the same, for example.

Here in S.E. Arizona, Interstate 19 which runs only from Tucson south to the U.S./Mexico border, approximately 70 miles, has metric signs that were put up when it was built in the early 1980s; however, they are now going back and replacing all of those signs with mile markers instead of metric.

[grandpopswalt]

The metric system certainly makes more sense. Take any unit of measure, multiply it by 10 or divide by 10 and you're automatically at the next logical level( mm to meters, liters to millileters, etc - yes I know that's X100 and /100).

However, as an old dog who's grown up on MPH and inches and ounces, it's really hard to get my mind around celsius, kilometers, and grams. I just KNOW that 90MPH is pretty fast but I just don't have a feel for 160KPH. I instinctively reach for a 1/2" socket but have to really study a 13mm bolt and then try 3 or 4 metric sockets until I get the right one. If I were forced to adopt the metric system I could/would, but I would prefer to keep the system we now have because it's the one I'm most comfortable with. Oops ... I guess that pretty well describes what a conservative is.

Walt

[vsmith]

Measure? on my layout?

You mean you guys actually Measure ?

[Anonymous]

RhB_HJ, I've been a carpenter for 13 or14yrs? anyway we always add a fuzz per say like 49 9/16 heavy instead of 32nds or we say leave the line or take it off when cutting a board. If the industry switches to metric or my tools get stolen again(knock on wood) I quit! Somebody steel my tools, please.

[bman36]

Hey all,
Be thankfull you don't live in Canada where we use both Metric AND Standard. Our former Prime Minister.....Pierre Elliot (gotta' leave a mark somehow) Trudeau decided to bring in Metric when I was a wee lad. Problem was he never finished the job. Go to any supermarket and all the scales read in lbs. and kg. Go figure??? Oh well. Hey Matt...in my garage I have TWO sets of tools! When fixing my rides I never know which I will need. Time for bed...Later eh...Brian.

[Anonymous]

Hi guys,

We Brits have had the metric system for some 30 yrs now but you tend to find that you use what you where taught at school. I went to school in the 50's/60's so I still convert back to imperial when I can. I remember the old prices when a pint of beer was 1 shilling and 9 pence. I had a pint last night and it was £1-95 or £1 and 19 shillings! That's gone from 1 and 3 quarter shillings to 39 shillings!! I hope it doesn't happen to you guys in the states, if it does you will be ripped off in the conversion - we where!
Anyway, agree with vsmith above, who measures on a railroad? If it looks right, it must be right.
Cheers,
Kim

[Anonymous]

just a footnote to the above guys. You'll be ripped off in the conversion to kg's, ltr's etc. Still, at the end of the day a box of track will always be a box of track.
Cheers,
Kim

[Anonymous]

In Canada I grew up on the metric system.

The weird part is that on a daily basis, I still measure my height and weight (and some other things) in imperial measurements.

I know I'm about 6'1" and 160lbs, but I couldn't tell you what that is in metric.

I'm always happy I learned metric in school though, I doubt I could pass an imperial measurements class.

[Anonymous]

LOL, yeah I live and work with both! here in the UK, we drive with MPH tho the speedo also show KPH, but fill our fuel tanks in litres, Road signs are in miles. I service my Vauxhall(General Motors) 4x4 with a half inch drive and metric sockets. Old British manufactured cars used Imperial, so we all have 2 sets of sockets and 2 sets of spanners, feeler guages etc. I go to the biulders merchants and buy in metric, timber, cement etc, Plumbing still has both metric and imperial!, and I do a fair amout of that. Wall and floor tiles can be bought in both sizes too. We buy in Kilos when shopping too. I think the UK is trying to adopt metrification because of the influence of Europe but we have to live with both untill such time future generations only know metric and then we will completely change.By and large it's surprisingly easy to work with! Actually with the railway it makes it a joy, it means I can run both metre guage and 3 foot guage, and that represents no problem.

[Anonymous]

....to note as well all Railways in Canada still run on the imperial system.

If only the US would change over, everything would be so much easier.

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by macguy

....to note as well all Railways in Canada still run on the imperial system.

If only the US would change over, everything would be so much easier.

I think we could change over to meters, centimeters, grams, liters et al. But, I think we would cling to miles and mph.

[DSchmitt]

Converting units within the metric system is easy, but as a Transportation Engineer working in a State Highway Department's Encroachment Permit Branch, I find the presently necessary conversions between imperial and metric units to be a costly (time wasting and error prone) mess. Most of the public, contractor's and even engineers (both in and out of the Department) that I deal with would rather stay with the imperial system.

Our highway system was developed using the imperial system: A 12 foot lane is easier to work with than a 3.66 meter lane. A 36" culvert a neater measurement than a 91.44 cm culvert. Tryng to extend an existing 36" culvert with a 90 cm (which some projects have specified) culvert requires additional work and cost in the field.

Metric plans are to different scales than imperial plans and stationing completely different (Five 20 m in 100 m vs four 25 ft in 100 ft) causing even more confusion.

To add to the confusion, there are "soft" (approximate) conversions between the two systems and "hard" (exact) conversions.

"soft" converting 53.25 PM (post mile) to 85.20 PK (post kilometer) 53.25 x 1.6 is not the same as the "hard" conversion of 85.70 PK . The "soft" conversion in this case is 0.31 mi (almost 1637 feet) off. I also recieve documents refering PM's as PK or PK's as PM and if both are shown to they almost never match. There are similar problems when converting stationing,

Add to this that now most highway plans are computer drafted and don't have the range of line weights and patterns that gave clues to what the lines represent that the old plans do.

I suspect that the US railroads have simular problems converting between the systems.

[Anonymous]

Yeah i know Donald those conversions can be a pain in the rear end and it took me about 30 years to appreciate much of the benefits of the metric system but i am convinced that it is a better sysem particularly to do with money and temperature and other things. A cubic metre of water is 1 metric tonne and i think it is 1000 litres as well very simple.

What really annoyed me, when they brought it in here was that they introduced measures of length in centimetres, just because it was the one closest to an inch. I worked for a while in SIE Division of Philips Electrical selling electronic weighing and process control instrumentation and we always worked in steps of 1000 ie 1 millimetre, 1 metre, 1 kilometre and even up to megawatts in electricity and this is how it should be.

Well I guess we will never all agree on anything, we can't even all drive on the same side of the road. I have driven a lot on both sides of the road and I can't see how one side has any advantage over the other.


Regards



Ian; Kawan Island

[DSchmitt]

Many but not all the problems of converting to metric could have been avoided with proper planning and training. But the decisions on how to do it were made by upper level management, who don't have to work directly with the consequences of their decisions. I do agree there are many benefits to the metric system

I studied Architecture before for 3 years before finally graduating a couple years later with a degree in Engineering. To me the metric system is not a "human" scale of distance measurement (at least for Western European decended humans". I don't remember the offical defination of the meter, but I know it has an astronomical base and has no relation to human proportions. I doubt the story that the length the foot was based on the kings actual foot is true, but imperial measurement appears to be a better fit for humans.

I have noticed that many other ethnic groups, who have been shorter in the past, now are often approaching "western european" norms. For instance there are many Hmongs in the area where I live. Many of the teenagers and young adults are as much as 1 ft (30 cm "soft" conversion) taller than their parents. They are catching up in size despite the fact that "western europeans" have also gotten taller.

[RhB_HJ]

QUOTE: Originally posted by iandor

Well I guess we will never all agree on anything, we can't even all drive on the same side of the road. I have driven a lot on both sides of the road and I can't see how one side has any advantage over the other.


Regards



Ian; Kawan Island

Ian,

You'll be right, mate, just don't head for the middle of the road with that car.[;)][:o)][:D]

[Anonymous]

This is in reply to everyone.

I think we had a reference to orientals; well I worked for the Chinese for the last 8 years of my working life and they were just the best, more money, better conditions, stock options and they fought among themselves to employ a man in his sixties. This is far better than I could have expected from my own people. My boss, Xing was at least 300 mm or a foot taller than me, so there.

I have travelled a lot around the orient and i am enthralled by it, if you could see my railway you would appreciate this.

Donald I must ask you how many fingers and toes do you have, if you have ten like me you must understand the reality and humaness of the metric system. All your well documented and well founded complaints, are to do with conversion from one system to the other not the system itself.

A few things that may interest you about people worldwide; did you know that females have been steadily reaching pubity earlier for nearly a century and no one knows why. Also it is official, the largest race of people on the planet are the Tongans.

Now getting on to a more important matter, the international price of beer. Because of our drink driving laws I drink at at home alsmost exclusively and a slab of 30 x 375 ml cans costs about US$26.00 and I can get 2 X 4 litre casks of good quality wine for about US $19.00. 375 mlitres is about 0.84 of an imperial pint, what it is in American measures is beyond me. But it is based on the old measure of a "schooner" inroduced a long time ago by the Brtish Navy. This is a pretty big drink that you would buy in a bar in Sydney and the rest of NSW and not in any other part of Australia.

I also have two sets of spanners (wrenches) and its been more than 30 years.

Speed is no problem in metric 110 km on our freeways is easy enough to understand. getting booked for speeding is also fairly easy to understand, irrespective of the system. I have no intention of driving in the middle of the road although i'm sure it would be ok somewhere in the world.

The business of the way different governemnts act is reasonable and I think a lot of our politicions animation is because they a slightly worse than the others.

All the best from Ian retired in the sunshine, what do they say about queenslands weather; perfect one day ideal the next.


Ian; Kawana Island Tropical Railway.

[DSchmitt]

QUOTE: Originally posted by iandor

Donald I must ask you how many fingers and toes do you have, if you have ten like me you must understand the reality and humaness of the metric system. All your well documented and well founded complaints, are to do with conversion from one system to the other not the system itself.

Actually I have only 3 toes on my right foot and 4 on my left[:(]

Yes, the metric system is easier because we use a base 10 numbering system. It was purposely designed that way. But not all civilizations have used base 10.

I'm not really against the metric system. I just hate the hastle of having to deal with converting between the imperial system and metric system at work.

Regarding my remark about the "human" scale of distance units. An example here in the USA the ceiling height used in most residential and light commercial architecture is 8' which I find more elegant and easier to use than 2.4384 m. The length of the units chosen for distance measure in the metric system was not chosen based on human scale. I am not sure that imperial units were either, but they do fit better. Ultimately it doesn't make any difference.

Incidently I asked a friend who has practiced Architecture in Japan about ceiling heights there. They use 2.4 m or roughly 8'.

[Anonymous]

Metric system? Fine, just fine...... but what I want to know is how come my ONE POUND can of coffee weighs in at 13 ounces? Oh yes, remember Miss Metric? She blinded me with Science !

[Anonymous]

Well slick all I can say to you is bad luck about your coffee, but don't you have a department of weights and measures in your country. What you are saying is you bought a 450 gram can of coffee and it only had 360 grams in it. Here in Australia this would be a serious matter and whover sold it to you would be liable. Do they have to declare the weight of the container maybe you just had a heavy can.

Donald at last we are heading in the same direction we too have 2400 mm ceilings 8' but here in Queensland if you have ceiling fans (which we do) it is wise to go to 2750 mm or 9', some of our ceilings are actually 3000 mm or 10 ' because of the high temperatures. So its all not so hard if common sense prevails.

This is my final word on the subject.


Ian..

[DSchmitt]

My remark that the Japanese use 2.4 mm ceilings is probably not relevant, because that probably came about relatively recently due to "western" influence.

I had some other thoughts:

The names of the numbers one .............ten, eleven, twelve indicate a base 12 origin.

Many, but not all, the imperial distance measurements fit a base 12 number system.

In commerce the dozen = 12 and 12 dozen = gross are base 12 derived

I found this article on the derivation of "English Common Units" which describes their relation to "human scale" http://www.unc.edu/~rowlett/units/custom.html

1" and 2.54 cm are still the same distance, so the system of measurement untimately doesn't matter. Because it is a logical easy to use system full conversion to the metric system in the long run good and probably inevitable.

[Anonymous]

I know Great Britain went metric a long time ago, but when I visited the country a few years ago and stepped on a scale I still got a readout in stones. Now why would a machine I never saw before in my life insult me by comparing me to a pile of rocks?