Gurus of S gauge,
I need to verify some points:
a) Is 'S gauge' American Flyer the same as 'S scale gauge' which I believe is in the neigborhood of 0.883 inches?
b) Those who kitbash in that scale (S, forget my scale for the moment) do they use American Flyer engines and rolling stock? If not, from whence cometh their power units and trucks?
c)S = to 1/64" scale, correct?
d) Would that ga trackage in 20.3 = 18" in realworld terms? Or close enuf?
e) Would this combination (20.3 & .883") then be known as Fn18?
My reason for asking is, I've become convinced Gn15 (runs on HO track) in 20.3 scale won't do for several reasons, the most important to me is lateral instability. The second reason is personal. The third reason is I've never fooled with S sizes, whether scale or gauge, and I might as well investigate.
I want to run a narrow gauge in my mining site. The narrowest compatible with 20.3 scale and usually recognized as a 'mine gauge', is 18", among other uses. I believe S will do nicely for this purpose.
Comments would be appreciated.
Les
Les,
In the S "world" S gauge usually refers to American Flyer. Flyer uses oversizes wheel flanges and couplers,(normally) and the cars from Flyer are more "toy like".(don't mean to affend any flyer people). S scale is a viable group, albeit much smaller than S gauge. The two main companies that supply S scale are S-Helper, and American Models. There is also a segment of narrow gauge, Sn3 which seems fairly popular. As far as rail width is .883 for standard, I am not sure about Sn3. I switch from HO to S about two years ago and have not regreted it for a minute. I love the size of S, which to me is a good compromise between HO and O.
Randy Johnson
Randy,
Thanks for the kind reply. Could I press you a bit and ask if Am Flyer gauge is .883"? The reason is, I want to use old Flyer parts to kitbash for my proposed (actually, in design, I did some freehand sketches the other night). Since I have little hope of beginning benchwork until Fall, I decided to start a diorama, and I decided to start with the mine.
I have definitely decided to go with .883, whether it be Am Flyer or not. I don't know what gauge Flyer is. If it is .883, I'll get a dead engine and k-ball it for parts and start from there. I have a lathe (and I'm a retired tool and die maker) so flanges and cone angles (tread angles) are no dark, unattainable secret. Point of fact, in the initial shakedown stages with the wooden track, the wider flanges may be an asset.
The nub of the problem is motive power and available trucks. I don't want to build my own and don't know much at all about the scale. I chose it over Gn15 (runs on HO @ 1:22 scale--generally) for a number of reasons, the major one being it doesn't look feasible to model my chosen scale, 20.3" to run on HO track. I feel there will be a lateral instability problem. Plus, HO ga is a tad narrow for mines, I'm told, but S is near perfect, scaling out right at 18" ga. While 24" ga is also widely used, I'm already using that on my logging site (also in planning) and for dual-gauge track with the 45mm NG I want. The reason for so many gauges is the opportunity to do lots of transfer switching or cargo transfer, between gauges. I'm not so into running trains in a long circle, though it certainly is relaxing to sit back and watch.
Lastly, my layout will be an indoor PP set ca 1845-99, so I'll use wooden track and strap iron rail (actually copper). All engines will be small, all radii tight.
Again, thank you for the input.
Howdy, Les,
S standard gauge, 0.883", scales to within 2mm of 18" gauge in 1:20.3 scale. Since you're working to a scale more than 3X larger than S (1:64) the toylike appearances of rolling stock which would basically serve as a source of wheels and mechanisms should be a moot point.
Sounds like a fun scratchbuilding project - and a refreshing change from the, "Where can I get (fillintheblank) ready to run in (railroad and time specific) colors?" found on the Model Railroader subset of the forums! It's nice to know I'm not the only one who isn't slave to premanufactured products.
Chuck (modeling Central Japan in September, 1964 - with lots of scratch-built and kitbashed items)
tomikawaTT wrote: Howdy, Les,S standard gauge, 0.883", scales to within 2mm of 18" gauge in 1:20.3 scale. Since you're working to a scale more than 3X larger than S (1:64) the toylike appearances of rolling stock which would basically serve as a source of wheels and mechanisms should be a moot point.A) Hello, Chuck. You're right on the nose with my intended use for Am Flyer. Parts. I understand the engines are AC powered, but a remotoring job ought to cure that. Eventually, I want to try my hand at making truck frames, archbar, and perhaps even try 'springing' them. But that's a long way down the pike. I'll be modelling in the 1850-99 era and for beginning, I intend to use 4 wheel rolling stock and 0-4-0T engines, which I propose to build from some Echo, SciFI & New Blight stuff. I've compared the gearboxes of those with some dead B'man 10 wheelers, and can't see much difference.Sounds like a fun scratchbuilding project - and a refreshing change from the, "Where can I get (fillintheblank) ready to run in (railroad and time specific) colors?" found on the Model Railroader subset of the forums! It's nice to know I'm not the only one who isn't slave to premanufactured products.A) Heh. No, you're not the only non-slave around town. As an aside, at an auction a month ago, I picked up a very large supply of old MR, MRC, and the like. I've been reading them. Lo, the first one I picked up, ddt 1959, had a how-to on a transfer table! Theirs was pretty complicated. If I build one, it will be much simpler. But first, turntables. Chuck (modeling Central Japan in September, 1964 - with lots of scratch-built and kitbashed items)
A) Hello, Chuck. You're right on the nose with my intended use for Am Flyer. Parts. I understand the engines are AC powered, but a remotoring job ought to cure that. Eventually, I want to try my hand at making truck frames, archbar, and perhaps even try 'springing' them. But that's a long way down the pike. I'll be modelling in the 1850-99 era and for beginning, I intend to use 4 wheel rolling stock and 0-4-0T engines, which I propose to build from some Echo, SciFI & New Blight stuff. I've compared the gearboxes of those with some dead B'man 10 wheelers, and can't see much difference.
A) Heh. No, you're not the only non-slave around town. As an aside, at an auction a month ago, I picked up a very large supply of old MR, MRC, and the like. I've been reading them. Lo, the first one I picked up, ddt 1959, had a how-to on a transfer table! Theirs was pretty complicated. If I build one, it will be much simpler. But first, turntables.
Thanks for the kind reply.
Les;
The .883 gauge in S is a fairly recent refinement. Originally the gauge was .875. Currently the NMRA's standard for S scale is .883 and for S Hi Rail is .865. S Hi Rail is in the process of being revised to .883. American Flyer is S Hi Rail. Given the width of Hi Rail wheel treads they will operate on .883. One thing to be aware of, is that S Hi Rail will not run through an S scale turnout. S scale will not operate reliably through a Hi Rail turnout unless a closed frog turnout is used. So if you bash American Flyer or other Hi Rail you need to use Hi Rail track/turnouts. For scale use scale track/turnouts. If you want to do both use Hi Rail with closed frog turnouts.
Enjoy
Paul
Paul,
Apparently my reply didn't make it thru the system.
Thank you for firming up the loose details for me.
Another problem solved!
1:24 and 1:64 are my rubber gauges. I've been butchering 1:64 and On30 stuff for use for a long time. Your plan is very similar to the one I have for my halfinch mine operation.
Here is a link to an inexpensive power block for 1:64 standard gauge (nominally 7/8" gauge). The regauging takes about 15 minutes to perform on the Bachmann On30 trolley power. Using a pair of SHS diesel wheelsets (see pic on my site), swap the drive gears with the Bachmann gears and drop the SHS wheels in place - results are a very low profile drive unit for about $35!!
http://s-scale.org/albums/main.php/v/friends/dmunseyjr/on30-2-s/
Then, a TEAM-LOSI receiver board and Li-Poly battery can then be place on top of this block for self-contained, battery powered, radio-controlled operations for an additional $50. I've got one of these set-ups under constuction now to go into one of Tom Yorke's large scale Gn15 vertical bolier logging loco - no pix yet - maybe this week-end. Also, I have the LOSI R/C setup ready to go into the Matchbox moving van (pic also on my site) for my Sn42 logging operation.
The Bachmann On30 archbar trucks are easily regauged to produce 7/8" gauge primitive archbars, again, using SHS wheelsets. BTW, SHS offers both "Hi-Rail" and Scale options on their wheelsets - only difference is flange depth. Here are some pix:
http://s-scale.org/albums/main.php/v/friends/dmunseyjr/on30-2-s/DCP_5006-crpd.JPG.html
http://s-scale.org/albums/main.php/v/friends/dmunseyjr/on30-2-s/DCP_5007-crpd.JPG.html
I hope this helps.
Don
Don Munsey, Jr S/Sn42 and Hn42 river logging fan Big Sandy & Cumberland RR & VGN Rwy fan Bonsai enthusiast Living in UpperRight Corner of Louisiana
Don,
Many thanks for the addresses. I really do need to see pictures of some of this S scale stuff to get a feel for what it's supposed to look like.
I tried all the addrs you listed via copy/paste, but none worked. I made a notebook copy and wil go back and try entering them by hand.
"7/8 ga". It never clicked that 7/8" = .875. Which is about .008" under S scale. I hafta wonder, in the real world of modelling, if that .008" makes all that much difference? Since I'll be using handlaid track to begin with, I could just lay it to 7/8 gauge.
Boy, this stuff is starting to fall right in place.
For some mystical reason you have to double click on the S-scale.org links twice on listservers like this before they will go through - if you send me an e-mail at dumnseyjr@comcast.net I'll send them to you direct. The URL to my top level folder at s-scale.org is:
http://s-scale.org/albums/main.php/v/friends/dmunseyjr/
Speaking of 0.008" !! I teach Intro Statistics at the community college and one of my recurring themes is that there are 4 occasions in the human condition where close is good enough: Horseshoes, Handgrenades, A-bombs and Slow dancing - perhaps I need to add halfinch scale modeling?? 7/8 inch gauge is what I grew up with as AF distance between rails and then S gauge - I guess the actual number 0.883" is important to some - Frankly, I haven't been able to see that well for decades. if I ever could!
Try this:
I think I figured out what I was doing wrong.
Try this link to the conversions:
If you want to flex track and ready made turnouts for your 1:20 mine tram, you'll have 3 or 4 readily available rail sizes: 1) S-Helper Service offers flex track, sectional track and turnouts in code 125, 2) American Models has flex track, sectional trackand turnouts in code 148 and 3) several vendors offer flex track and turnouts in code 100 or code 172.
BTW, where are you located? I'm in the UpperRightCorner of Louisiana.
bigswede073 wrote: Speaking of 0.008" !! I teach Intro Statistics at the community college and one of my recurring themes is that there are 4 occasions in the human condition where close is good enough: Horseshoes, Handgrenades, A-bombs and Slow dancing - perhaps I need to add halfinch scale modeling?? 7/8 inch gauge is what I grew up with as AF distance between rails and then S gauge - I guess the actual number 0.883" is important to some - Frankly, I haven't been able to see that well for decades. if I ever could! Don
I will never understand statistics: If I flip a penney 50 times, I am convinced that sucker will come up tails on the 51st. Or 52nd at latest. It has to! The Law of Averages can only be bent so far.... (chuckle). And, as a triumph of assertation over math, who has ever flipped 50 heads in a row, hmm?
About the .008" difference. I just have to wonder (I'm a retired machinist) how much the gauge along any given length of rail changes with the temperature, humidity, etc, etc. I'll bet it's remarkable. Of course, changing in the additive direction might be a source of trouble....
Wish I hadn't thought of that.
That should be 'assertion' ... it's too far past my bedtime.
Did the new links work?
I thought of another flex track source - Gragraves - didn't think of it yesterday because the wooden ties are somewhat over size for 1:64 (about 3/16" square) - but - should be just about right for 1:20 (or my 1:24 now thatI think about it). The code 172 rail comes in stainless (or at least it used to) - should hold up to the weather well, sepecially if you soak or treat the ties.
OOPS!
That should be GARGRAVES.
I haven't yet tried the new links because I've been labelled a Public Nuisance by my city. Because they don't like the neat stuff in my backyard, and the lack of pruning on my honeysuckle.
THus, I am a tad weary from trying to clean up.Les
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