I am verry confused about the whole train engineer idea and what system does what. What I am looking for is a D.C.C. system that can control sound in buildings and trains. P.S. could you clue me in on the system? Thank's
I am verry confused about the whole train engineer idea and what system does what. What I am looking for is a D.C.C. system that can control sound in buildings and trains.
P.S. could you clue me in on the system?
Thank's
I've never seen or used an Aristo-Craft Train Engineer (TE) system, but your question peeked my interest.
To add to the confusion, I went to the Aristo-Craft web site and read their TE technical manual. My undestanding of their mumbo-jumbo description of TE is that it is NOT a DCC system, but there is a TE receiver that plugs into the DCC decoder socket in locomotives that are sold as "DCC Ready."
If the engine doesn't have the DCC decoder socket, then you have to have a TE receiver that is soldered in.
TE seems to be to be a transmitter/receiver system for radio control of your locomotives.
Perhaps someone who uses TE can straighten us both out.
You can do a few things with the Aristo TE.
I have most often seen it used as an RC controller for track power - Transmitter to a receiver that controls the voltage to the track.
I have also seen the same trackside receiver put into a trailer RC car with a battery pack for battery/RC control.
The third use being to control the on board controllers which is similar to DCC.
That said Aristo is working a a new updated TE. Originally it was going to be a 900 mHz system (the first two versions were 27 and 75 mHz currently on the market) but ran into problems with that. So the new version will be 2.4 gigaHz. Supposedly it will be out early next year.
-Brian
To me I would want DCC separate from my homes and industries JMHO
Toad
The head is gray, hands don't work , back is weak, legs give out, eyes are gone, money go's and my wife still love's Me.
dwbeckett wrote:At 2.4GHz you mite get some unwanted phone calls
The TE is not DCC it is RC
The 27mhz trackside TE is used to control track power remotely.
The 75mhz on-board is used with constant track power and will control each loco individually remotely.
The on-board with the accessory board also controls blowing the horn, bell, etc.
The 27mhz on-board is not available anymore.
I have been using the 27/75mhz on-boards for many years and have no problem with them.
Bud
There is the 27 mhz transmitter receiver used for track controlled power and sometimes mounted in a battery car.
You can add the 55474 and get control of 100ma for a light or relay on the C output, and there are 2 (D and E) outputs for controlling 2 sounds via an open collector transistor(this is in lieu of a reed switch). The A and B are for switch machines (can be LGB EPL units and you can add a DPDT to these).
SO, the 55474 can control 5 functions.
There is a lot of information at George Schreyers site on the 27 mhz TE system and thereis a book produced by Aristocraft on how to utilize many features, however the info is pre year 2000 and does not have the latest transmitter info.
The Aristo TE is, like several other control systems, a PROPRIETARY system.
Proprietary systems are usually only supported by one vendor and are not compatible with parts of other systems. The disadvantage is that should the maker have supply problems or go out of business you may be stuck with a system that you can not easily add too.
Another disadvantage is that you are boxed in. That is, you are limited to the features that the manufacturer decides to provide.
Compare that to DCC.
DCC is a STANDARD.
It is supported by many manufactures. All DCC equipment carrying the NMRA conformance seal has been tested by the NMRA. DCC is a well defined standard and manufactures strive to be compatible. DCC systems and components that claim DCC compatibility will always provide a basic set of functions so that trains equipped with any brand of DCC decoders will work with any brand of DCC system.
The advantages:
You are not locked in to one manufacturer.
There is an almost unlimited array of devices you can control with a DCC system.
By choosing different DCC decoders, you can control DC motors, AC motors, Servos in live steamers, lights, relays, solenoids, sounds, turnouts, lift bridges, turntables, traffic light, RR signals, lights in buildings, grade crossing gates (with flashing lights, and bell) or just about anything. (I use a stationary decoder to control my sprinkler system, fogger and a waterfall pump.)
Because there is such a wide range of DCC compatible decoders, you can make the system as simple or as advanced as you like. An inexpensive mobile motor decoder usually will control (of course) the motor in a loco, and the headlights and perhaps one or to other lights. A little bit better decoder might have a dozen outputs for mars lights, ditch lights, smoke, and flickering smoke box glow. These can be optionally configured by you to follow the prototype practices of any real railroad you like. (Stuff like rule 17 or dimming the headlight or flashing the ditch lights.) Sound DCC decoders let you control the sounds from your remote, make sounds automatically, or activate sounds with a magnet between the rails. Some decoders combine sound with the motor and light controls all on one decoder.
Because there are so many different decoders to choose from, you can also choose how you install them For example: You can buy a combo motor and sound decoder and install it in the loco. You would need to run wires back to the tender for the speaker and backup light. If you don't like having wires between the tender and loco, then buy a motor decoder for the loco and a sound decoder with light function outputs for the tender. You hook the motor and headlight to the motor decoder and the speaker and backup light to the sound decoder in the tender. With both decoders set to the same loco number, the lights and sounds are all operated by simple presses of the buttons on your controller. Change directions and each decoder responds appropriately, switching on or off the correct light and making the sounds to match the loco movement.
You are also not limited to a single form of power delivery. Battery RC users are fond of pouting batteries, receiver and controller in a box car and using it with several locos. You can do the same with DCC. You could install batteries, a command station and IR or radio receiver in a box car and wire up a plug on your locos to do exactly the same thing. There are even two manufactures (perhaps more) who make DCC compatible systems especially for that purpose.
If you want sounds from your layout, there are even ways to control the sounds using DCC. There are boards that hold dozens of separate sounds in memory and work quite easily with DCC.
One word of caution. There are plenty of people who will tell you that DCC is track power and as such has all the problems of Analog DC on dirty track. Don't believe it. DCC supplies up to 24 volts to the rails all the time. Even when a loco is just creeping along. An Analog DC loco that is just creeping along might have just 3 volts, lose half a volt due to dirt and the analog loco would stop. lose 1/2 a volt (or even 10 volts) due to dirty track and the DCC loco still has more than enough power to continue at the same speed.
Another big plus is radio throttles on DCC, If you like wireless walk around control, you will love DCC. The receiver can be located centrally and oriented to cover an entire layout. there are no issues with motor noise, tunnels, or reception with wireless DCC track power. I can control my trains from a block away. Much rather than needed.
Another advantage. One throttle per operator is all that is needed. A single throttle can control any train in your garden. No need to change frequencies, have a separate throttle for each loco, or go looking for the "RIGHT" throttle for a loco and then having to maintain charged batteries for several throttles. Some throttles even provide dual controls so you can run two trains at once without having to select one or the other. And, DCC systems can easily combine two or more different locos on one control for double, triple heading or helper service.
I hope this information help you sort things out.
B0B
Bob,
You just made me think more. I have some DCC stuff but the guys at my local store want me to change to DCS (or what ever MTH system runs on proto2sound?) I am at a loss here to tell you the truth.
William
Wiliam
I have little direct experience with DCS, But, it is a proprietary system, not at all compatible with DCC.
From all accounts, it has a lot of nice features, far more than the Aristo TE. It also appears that it has fewer user decisions that must be made, IE it is a little more plug and play than some other choices. Many people use it and like it. I'm not at all sure that most if not all features can also be replicated with various DCC components.
From what little I know from reading their manuals and lurking on some forums, here are the only downsides I'm aware of.
DCS uses a carrier to deliver the digital information to the trains. This is a low voltage high frequency signal that is "INJECTED INTO" or "RIDES ON TOP OF" the power. (Which I think can be either AC or DC.)
Unless it has changed, the control signal is fed to one rail, so locos always have to face one direction to work. There seems to be a fair number of questions on the DCS forums about loss of signal.
Compare that to DCC. DCC puts a high current, high voltage digital signal on the rails. There is no AC or DC power on the rails like with DCS or Aristo TE. The DCC decoder almost never has trouble seeing the signal, because it is so big and powerful. The DCC decoder also rectifies the DCC data signal to produce the power it needs to run the lights and motor. You see, with DCC THE SIGNAL IS THE POWER. Not something separate that is injected onto a separate power on the rails.
What this means is that the only thing that can cause a DCC decoder to stop working is when there is so little signal that there is not enough power to operate the decoder. Whereas a little capacitance in your rails may be enough to short out a small carrier it would take a real SHORT CIRCUIT to stop a DCC signal.
Remember, DCS was created for indoor layouts, smaller and easy to add wiring to insure that the signal makes it to all parts of a layout. However, some people have managed to adapt DCS to medium sized outdoor layouts. You will probably need to read up on outdoor user experiences and solutions if you choose DCS.
Here are some questions I'd ask the guys at the local store.
Like any good car dealer, they can tell you why their Ford is better than your Chevy or the Dodges on the lot next door... You can believe them or not.
Bob
Can the train engineer control the sound board inside an aristocrat tender?
Thanks
Chris
As I understand DCC, The commands are sent to all the encoders on the system (both in the locos and trackside) via the track. If that's true, then all the problems associated with conventional (variable voltage DC) will also be present with DCC. I'm refering specifically to dirty track and loss of continuity. I believe that's why R/C and battery power has been gaining so much support (that and greatly improved battery systems).
Walt
Aristo's train engineer comes in a bunch of different flavors.
There's the "basic" TE, which is orange and comes in starter sets. It's a simple sped and direction control and though it works fine in the living room, in my experience it's useless beyond 5-8 feet
There's the "Trackside" 27 mhz. TE, which comes in a black case. It was designed as a more sophisticated version of the basic TE, with greater range. Some people take it out of the case and put it in a trailing car and then, when the train is powered by batteries, use the "trackside" TE to control speed and direction. It's apparently quite effective this way. I believe it's been discontinued
There's the 75 mhz TE, which comes in a gray case. I have a BUNCH of the recievers for this system. It's pretty good--I get decent but not huge range, roughly 40 feet. It's simple and rugged. The receivers plugged right into the Aristo socket--very easy. If you can find the 75 mhz accessory board, you can use it to control sound and lights. I'm doing this in one engine and it works fine. The 75 mhz. TE is discontinued though.
They have a new system coming out, the Revolution TE, and they are describing it being able to do all the thing DCC does with less complexity. It's supposed to have fabulous range and all sorts of great features. Maybe it does, but I'm staying away from it, because even if it's as great as advertised it's a proprietary system. I invested quite a bit of money in Aristo's 75 mhz system and now it's dead. But the new Revolution TE is suppsed to give you very extensive control of sound and lights, if you buy a good add-on soundboard
I went to QSI and Airwire, which is basically DCC. It's much more sophisitcated than I am--I still haven't begun to figure out all the things it can do. And it has sound built in. And it's DCC compliant, and it's cheaper if you want sound included.
I suspect Aristo will sell a lot of these because it looks to be simple and effective. But I'm wouldn't commit to it till it's been extensively reviewed and unless you're sre you dn't mind a proprietary system
Both Brian and Lownote have a good over view of the Train Engineer. I been using the 27mhz system for many years with good results. I have a 425' loop meandering through a hillside garden and use it as walk around RC of my track.
Rob
My guess is that most of the R/C systems are proprietary. But the basic concept is that the command signal arrives via radio (R/C) which then starts the process of "chopping" the fixed DC voltage from the battery and sends it to the motor as a variable DC.
The main advantage is that it operates from an onboard battery. Therefore the track material and cleanliness are no longer a factor, you could run it on plastic or wooden track and you'd still have control (that may not be entirely true with RCS - I think they use one rail as part of the antenna system). Another big advantage is that you can run relatively low cost aluminum track and never have to clean it again.
On the other hand, DCC sends it's control info through the track as part of the power current ( the voltage that's sent to the track [and seen by all the loco's on the railroad] is chopped up in such a way that the onboard decoders are able to get control info from it). In my view this makes DCC as touchy about track condition as standard (analog) variable voltage (DC) track power.
And R/C can also control bells, whistles, etc as well as accessories and turnouts.
According to what Mr. Polk has stated on the Aristo Forum; While the 75mhz TE is indeed discontinued, they continue to make and support the 27mhz system! Supposedly you will not get interferance on the 2.4 system, even if you have several working in close proxmity! It does away with the range problem of motor noise cancelling signal that the 75mhz system had.
I have a 27mhz mounted in a trailing car and have in excess of 200 feet of range on that unit. I can even operate that one from inside the house (nice for freezing cold weather)!
By no means is it a DCC unit. Sound is activated by throttle position (yes, it's somewhat limiting; but bells and whistles do work!), but independent control of features does not exist.
ozoffiHello! The problems with dirty tracks current supply is not as bad with DCC, as with classical DC. Since the tension amounts to constantly 24 V, also possible transition resistances are smaller.Regards Oliver
Regards Oliver
I have to disagree with you as I and many others have experienced issues with dirty track while using DCC. It sounds like you are stating an opinion. It is not as bad with DC if the locos have flywheels. Yes, there are 24 volt pulses but the slightest interruption by dirt and the decoder hiccups. This is not opinion, it is experience.
Some people including me, solder in a keep alive capacitor which can be considered as a electronic flywheel.
Search Google for dcc dirty track.
http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&ned=us&q=dcc+dirty+track&btnmeta%3Dsearch%3Dsearch=Search+the+Web
For the original poster, Aristo-Craft is RC control. I have seen it in operation at a train show.
Search Google for DCC systems. There is a lot out there. Take your time reading and making a selection. Much of DCC is Not plug and play regardless of what some people say. If you do not believe me, take an hour or so and look through the DCC forum.
You might look through the General forums also because there are clueless who do not know how the use the forums. At least get a good idea of what is happening. When you step from the DC, Analog World, into the DCC, Digital World, there are considerably more things you can do.
Rich
If you ever fall over in public, pick yourself up and say “sorry it’s been a while since I inhabited a body.” And just walk away.
I guess it depends on the amount of stock you run, the size of your railroad and how simple or complicated you want things.
I opted for the 27MHz. TE. This was a decision made before the recent Revolution TE was made.
It is exactly what I require. I don't use smoke or sounds, other than the battery operated sound supplied with Bachmanns Annies, so the TE is very simple to use by me and my grandchildren. I have a receiver installed in a boxcar, for batter operation and another receiver for track operation. The handset (transmitter) that operates the TE provides for either direction of travel, very slow to fast speeds at ealistic increments and even more beneficial to me during cold winter days means I can operate from the rear indoor part of my home or from a summer house in the back yard. The range is more than adequate enough for my small railroad. The handset is very neat, it doesn't resemble a computer game or some other model controllers which needs two hands nor does it look toylike which, in my opinion, some others do. It is also reasonable priced.
Alan, Oliver & North Fork Railroad
https://www.buckfast.org.uk/
If you don't know where you are going, any road will take you there. Lewis Carroll English author & recreational mathematician (1832 - 1898)
DCS ! The two largest "O Gauge" producers are Lionel and MTH Electric Trains.
Today MTH makes as standard, ProtoSound 2 / DCS (Digital Command System) in most locomotives they make (except low cost Starter Sets). Lionel installs there system, TMCC (Train Master Command Control or an advanced version of TMCC called Legacy) in the higher priced locomotives only. Both systems were designed for "O Gauge". Both systems use Radio Control (each to an interface, then MTH through the track, Lionel through the air). Both systems include Digital Sound in addition to Comand Control.
MTH has entered both the "HO Gauge" and "G Gauge" markets. The ProtoSound 2 / DCS system runs Digital Command OR Conventional Varying Voltage Operation --- on AC OR DC. ProtoSound 2 Upgrade Kits for DCS and Sound list for $190.
MTH is now shipping as standard for there "HO" locomotives, the ProtoSound 3 / DCS / DCC System. I have been told (at the highest level) that they will begin shipping the "G Gauge" (One Gauge) locomotives with ProtoSound 3 soon. (soon?) ProtoSound 3 has built in Sound, DCS decoder, and the NMRA standard DCC decoder.
I have 10 "G" gauge MTH locomotives and run them under DCS Control. I have also converted 5 Aristo-Craft locomotives to DCS Control. Controlling both motion and all sounds (including Crew Talk) from one handheld Remote is enjoyable. Other Aristo-Craft locomotives I have run on the 75MHz Train Engineer. Different remote but it can operate on the same track as the DCS system at the same time.
Don U. TCA 73-5735
DMUinCT DCS ! The two largest "O Gauge" producers are Lionel and MTH Electric Trains. Today MTH makes as standard, ProtoSound 2 / DCS (Digital Command System) in most locomotives they make (except low cost Starter Sets). Lionel installs there system, TMCC (Train Master Command Control or an advanced version of TMCC called Legacy) in the higher priced locomotives only. Both systems were designed for "O Gauge". Both systems use Radio Control (each to an interface, then MTH through the track, Lionel through the air). Both systems include Digital Sound in addition to Comand Control. MTH has entered both the "HO Gauge" and "G Gauge" markets. The ProtoSound 2 / DCS system runs Digital Command OR Conventional Varying Voltage Operation --- on AC OR DC. ProtoSound 2 Upgrade Kits for DCS and Sound list for $190. MTH is now shipping as standard for there "HO" locomotives, the ProtoSound 3 / DCS / DCC System. I have been told (at the highest level) that they will begin shipping the "G Gauge" (One Gauge) locomotives with ProtoSound 3 soon. (soon?) ProtoSound 3 has built in Sound, DCS decoder, and the NMRA standard DCC decoder. I have 10 "G" gauge MTH locomotives and run them under DCS Control. I have also converted 5 Aristo-Craft locomotives to DCS Control. Controlling both motion and all sounds (including Crew Talk) from one handheld Remote is enjoyable. Other Aristo-Craft locomotives I have run on the 75MHz Train Engineer. Different remote but it can operate on the same track as the DCS system at the same time.
My big concern based on the comments in this thread is the way commands are transmitted down the track with DCS Vs DCC. With only one rail used in DCS, can I run two locos opposite each other, one on the outer loop and the second on the inner loop?
Is dirt on track a factor with DCS and how much real experience does MTH have with G-scale and outdoor systems. DCS may be great indoors.... outside?
GG
I've never liked batteries much. They seem like a pain in the neck--is this pack charged? Is it losing its capacity? Do I have a charged pack around, etc etc. Will the lights drain the battery, or the sounds? Track power was always the way I wanted to go.
I went with constant track power and QSI/Airwire. My track is at a constant 21 volts, and each loco has a remote in it. The Airwire throttle is sending DCC commands, so you have full DCC capability. I could covert to battery and keep the QSI/Airwire. I could convert to track-signal DCC usng another rmanufacturer's signal booster system and keep the airwire/QSI. That's what I mean by not proprietary
Stainless track is great but it's not a necessity--I have 2-300 feet of almost all brass track and the only cleaning I do is to run an aristo track cleanign car around . I do have a lot of clamps, but not on all joints. I've been gradually adding them. So in my expereince the dirty track issue is overstated.
And as mentioned, the QSI has sound built in, while with the Aristo system you will have to add a sound card and additional wirng
Your Bio does not show where you live. BUT
If you live driving distance to West Springfield Massachusetts, be sure to go to the Train Show held at the Eastern States Fair Grounds on January 24th and 25th.
. You will be able to take to the Vice Presidents of MTH, look at and try DCS. Talk to designers from Aristo-Craft, look at and handle the new "Revolution TE". Talk to Charlie Ro, owner of U.S.A. Trains. Most of the DCC manufacturers will also be in one of the three halls full of trains (lots of "G").
If too far to drive, plan on the "G Scale York Show" on March 27th and 28th in York PA. All the Dealers and Manufacturers also go there.
A third option would be to join the Train Collectors Association. While mostly an "O" gauge organization, there huge York PA shows each April and October draw 15,000 MEMBERS (a member only show) and fill all 8 halls at the York Fair Grounds with trains. There you can talk to members Lewis Polk, Mike Wolf, Charlie Ro and others.
ChrisEMTpaCan the train engineer control the sound board inside an aristocrat tender? ThanksChris
Yes.
The Revolution Train Engineer is currently in beta testing, and is scheduled for delivery on May 5, 2009.
It is a pulse coded 2.4 GHz, 2 way transmission system which when combined with other features makes it very impervious to interference, and a 300-400 ft range. There are 6-100ma current sink aux outputs that are programmable for momentary or latched ops. It has sophisticated speed matching and consisting for up to 6 mu. A trackside receiver is or will be available for layout accessories.
http://www.aristocraft.com/techinfo/revolution/REVOLUTION_TE_manual_Rev_A_0409.pdf
You can also read about it in the Aristo Battery/RC forum. I just searched for "Revolution".
AC is also working on an HO version, and a Li-ion battery that will fit in an HO baggage car.
It sounds very promising to me.
DC
http://uphonation.com
A couple of additional points.
DCC decoders do not go nuts at the slightest hiccup any more. That was 10 years ago, and it was true then, things have improved.
DCS is a propreitary system, but there's a lot of neat stuff you can do. The next generation decoders from MTH will do BOTH DCS and DCC, so what does that tell you?
Regards, Greg
Visit my site: http://www.elmassian.com - lots of tips on locos, rolling stock and more.
Click here for Greg's web site
Greg Elmassian DCC decoders do not go nuts at the slightest hiccup any more. That was 10 years ago, and it was true then, things have improved.
I don't know about the large scale DCC applications, but I still see too many individual decoder problems - of all brands - at the SDMRRC HO layout in San Diego.
Greg Elmassian DCS is a propreitary system, but there's a lot of neat stuff you can do. The next generation decoders from MTH will do BOTH DCS and DCC, so what does that tell you?
It tells me that it's going to be even more complex, and thus more prone to problems. But then, that's good for business...if you are into making and selling DCC or DCS components.
The nice thing about DCC in large scale is that you have have enough room for a capacitor to store charge so that brief interruptions are basically "ignored".
When I started, I read that DCC outdoors was "impossible"... well if you come by my place some weekend (you are invited), you might change your opinion about feasibility. You would have fun in any case.
I'm picky about reliability, and if it did not work well, I certainly would not defend it, because it would be making me crazy!
One other advantage, is the "pull through" of technology. Since the HO market is huge, the large scale decoders are basically identical with larger output capacity. It's a tough world to be developing hardware for one scale only. The DCC manufacturers have more engineers and larger budgets.
Get the Garden Railways newsletter delivered to your inbox twice a month