pastorbob BRAKIE: While staging tracks can be a blessing they can also be a hindrance on operation nights in fact they can become a operation killer if staging becomes the primary source of traffic instead of the working yards.. On a larger point to point I am not sure if I would have staging..A smaller point to point yes but,only as a secondary destination and I would use return loop staging.. Brakie, I seldom disagree with you but I do not find staging a hinderance on operating sessions. In fact, I could not run the volume of trains we run if I didn'have lots of staging. I especially disagree in the case of a large point to point, which my layout is. The only return loop on the railroad is one that connects the top deck with the middle deck and used only for testing equipment and when I am on tour for Santa Fe modelers or NMRA. Bob
BRAKIE: While staging tracks can be a blessing they can also be a hindrance on operation nights in fact they can become a operation killer if staging becomes the primary source of traffic instead of the working yards.. On a larger point to point I am not sure if I would have staging..A smaller point to point yes but,only as a secondary destination and I would use return loop staging..
While staging tracks can be a blessing they can also be a hindrance on operation nights in fact they can become a operation killer if staging becomes the primary source of traffic instead of the working yards..
On a larger point to point I am not sure if I would have staging..A smaller point to point yes but,only as a secondary destination and I would use return loop staging..
Brakie, I seldom disagree with you but I do not find staging a hinderance on operating sessions. In fact, I could not run the volume of trains we run if I didn'have lots of staging. I especially disagree in the case of a large point to point, which my layout is. The only return loop on the railroad is one that connects the top deck with the middle deck and used only for testing equipment and when I am on tour for Santa Fe modelers or NMRA.
Bob
Bob,Maybe I should explain a tad more?
Ataging came be a hindrance if its improperly used.
To my mind when every 6th or 7th train terminates in one of the yards then something is lost in the shuffle.Of course I never was a fan for seeing how many trains can be ran between staging on operation nights but,to each their own enjoyment.
Of course my point to point experiences is operating on club layouts in the past where every train had to be reclassified(exceptions being unit trains and intermodal) and that's what put the fun in those club's operation nights..
To see one train depart as another enters the yard was as realistic as any club operation can be plus,it kept the yardmaster,engine hostler and passenger terminal operator busy and it was a crowd pleaser.
We ran roughly 30-32 trains on operation night and that was enough to keep everybody busy including the main line engineers.
You see our operation goal was to have nobody standing around on operation nights with their hands in their pockets or gabbing.
At one club we did add 2 staging yards for intermodal and unit trains-both yards was connected by a "return " track when empty coal trains could be ran from the "South" Staging to the "North" staging and loaded coal trains from North to South..A staging yard operator attended these trains.
Not to toot my horn that "return" track was my idea.
Larry
Conductor.
Summerset Ry.
"Stay Alert, Don't get hurt Safety First!"
Operationally, my layout runs like a point-to-point, with a major yard/engine change facility fed from staging at both ends.
Schematically, my main line is a donut - mostly double track, with some (visible) single track. Attached to that donut are four freight staging yards, two passenger staging arrangements (one a yard, one just a single track with crossovers to the two mains,) train-reversing connection used by EVERY train, the hidden side of a loads out-empties in arrangement for my large colliery and a cassette dock.
The cassettes are those rain-gutter things mentioned earlier, each capable of holding an entire local freight. A dozen currently exist, most presently full - but the main layout is still 'way short of being completed.
All of the staging is hidden below scenery, so it doesn't occupy a square millimeter of 'visible world' space.
Why so much? My ultimate plan is to operate to the published schedule of a main line that operated well over a hundred trains over part or all of its route on a slow day. There has to be a place to hide all the trains 'waiting in the wings' for their turn on stage.
Chuck (Modeling the hectic traffic of Central Japan in September, 1964)
Brakie: I agree there's a problem when all trains are run to and from Staging. The problem with yard to yard is it can become as much a ping-pong tournement as Staging can. The big issue being if a lot of industires on a layout don't play well with each other. Ideally, a car comes form Staging, goes to Yard A who loads it with say scrap metal. It then goes to yard B where it drops that in the blast fourncace and recieves raw steel, which it then goes back to Yard BV who passes it to Yard C who puts that Steel into a company who makes something out of ut, puts back into that car, and then it goes back to Staging where that product is sold. How many layouts are there big enough to host four industires that chain together like that? Not many, relative to the number of smaller layouts out there. the club I'm in can almost do that, if we had a place to put a furnace. But in a 40x60, there's not one. And worse, we're modelling SOuthern Indiana, which unlike the Northern end, has a dearth of Metal Frncaes. And a lot of chained industries like that can't all be found in a proptypical area, so it HAS to go into Staging to connect the dots. Or, yared masters keep sending cars to another yard because there's nothing they can do with that car.
-Morgan
Earlier I posted a discription of my layout and my reasons for through staging and a continuous run. Again, the layout is an eight scale mile double track loop with eight different staging areas which hold a total of 25 trains.
Here is a discription of normal operations:
Trains leave any of the eight staging areas, they travel to the ONE yard. At that yard a number of different things are possible. With double track east and west bound trains move at the same time with little conflict and provide a high level of traffic.
Some trains terminate in the yard, their consist to be sorted and distributed to the industries on the layout. In this case most of the industries are accessed via a belt line that leaves from the yard. A local sets them out and makes pickups returning them to the yard. A single "mainline" local serves the very few industries located along the main.
Some trains entering the yard leave only part of their consist, pick up other traffic headed in their direction, get a power change if needed/due and proceed to a different staging destination.
Some trains are made up from the industry pickups and sent either east or west to their of stage destinations.
Some trains only get a power change and proceed on. A VERY few bypass the yard completely.
Passenger trains are similar, some just stop at the major terminal, some switch out power and/or head end equipment, but a few begin and end at the major terminal requiring yard work from the engine terminal and coach yard.
The "one" visable yard is almost exactly half way between the two far "ends" of the modeled mainline.
Additionally interchange trains from several other roads enter from several of the staging locations and bring their trains into the yard.
And, local and commuter passenger service is run over the modeled portion of the mainline to a number of lessor pasenger stops.
With 4 trains always moving on the mainline, one on a single track branch, two switcher or locals working the yard and belt line, and one switcher/hostler working the engine terminal, coach yard and passenger terminal, eight operators and a dispatcher can stay real busy.
As previously mentioned, mainline freight trains are 30-35 cars. Sidings of that length for single track operation would require much more space than the 800 sq ft I have. That is if you wanted any reasonable run between sidings - a reason I prefer double track when modeling a large Class I operation.
I would much rather have longer trains, a larger, more realistic yard and passenger terminal, larger less compressed industries, and better display running options than to try and model two terminals.
Sheldon
Let me drop in rather late in this discussion with some new opinions.
In opening, let me say that I'm an "operator" and do have staging on my layout. However, I feel that while staging is often a very nice feature to have on moderate-sized and larger layouts, I don't regard it nearly as essential in every case as many others seem to. Dependent on just what the hobbyist's layout is supposed to represent and its size, staging may or may not add materially to its operation. I can think of, and have seen, a number of pikes that would in no way benefit materially from adding staging.
In most instances, staging can also prove a dramatic space eater. I've seen layout examples where the hobbyist has lost up to 40% of the space that might otherwise have been used to expand the operating portion of the layout. I believe that it was Frank Ellison who, back in the late 40's/early 50's, presented several layout concepts in the pages of MR that would have resulted in nothing but a short scenicked diorama flanked either side by physically larger staging yards (emphasizing his concept that model railroading was essentially a stage play)! This might be OK for a train show display, but as a home layout, in my opinion it fails totally.
Over the years I've visited all manner of layouts, with equally diverse purposes. From that I've concluded that for those with limited layout space and particularly beginners'/novices' when considering their first layout or two, staging (beyond perhaps some simple cassette arrangement) should not typically be considered a significant factor in the pike's design. Staging is great for the more advanced hobbyists, those who do "operate" their pikes in a realistic and methodical fashion, but we are a decided minority in the hobby. For the average model railroader just running trains is the objective and this can be accomplished just as easily without devoting a significant portion of what is usually a limited layout space to begin with, to staging.
CNJ831
Flashwave Brakie: I agree there's a problem when all trains are run to and from Staging. The problem with yard to yard is it can become as much a ping-pong tournement as Staging can. The big issue being if a lot of industires on a layout don't play well with each other. Ideally, a car comes form Staging, goes to Yard A who loads it with say scrap metal. It then goes to yard B where it drops that in the blast fourncace and recieves raw steel, which it then goes back to Yard BV who passes it to Yard C who puts that Steel into a company who makes something out of ut, puts back into that car, and then it goes back to Staging where that product is sold. How many layouts are there big enough to host four industires that chain together like that? Not many, relative to the number of smaller layouts out there. the club I'm in can almost do that, if we had a place to put a furnace. But in a 40x60, there's not one. And worse, we're modelling SOuthern Indiana, which unlike the Northern end, has a dearth of Metal Frncaes. And a lot of chained industries like that can't all be found in a proptypical area, so it HAS to go into Staging to connect the dots. Or, yared masters keep sending cars to another yard because there's nothing they can do with that car.
Here's the rub with those 2 club point to point layouts..None of the industries was link together and the cars would "disapear" in the 1500 or so freight cars on the layout and wouldn't return to the same industry for weeks ( months perhaps?).IIRC we had 1500-1600 freight cars and 17 industries that used mostly covered hoppers,boxcars,tank cars and gons.
BRAKIE Flashwave: Brakie: I agree there's a problem when all trains are run to and from Staging. The problem with yard to yard is it can become as much a ping-pong tournement as Staging can. The big issue being if a lot of industires on a layout don't play well with each other. Ideally, a car comes form Staging, goes to Yard A who loads it with say scrap metal. It then goes to yard B where it drops that in the blast fourncace and recieves raw steel, which it then goes back to Yard BV who passes it to Yard C who puts that Steel into a company who makes something out of ut, puts back into that car, and then it goes back to Staging where that product is sold. How many layouts are there big enough to host four industires that chain together like that? Not many, relative to the number of smaller layouts out there. the club I'm in can almost do that, if we had a place to put a furnace. But in a 40x60, there's not one. And worse, we're modelling SOuthern Indiana, which unlike the Northern end, has a dearth of Metal Frncaes. And a lot of chained industries like that can't all be found in a proptypical area, so it HAS to go into Staging to connect the dots. Or, yared masters keep sending cars to another yard because there's nothing they can do with that car. Here's the rub with those 2 club point to point layouts..None of the industries was link together and the cars would "disapear" in the 1500 or so freight cars on the layout and wouldn't return to the same industry for weeks ( months perhaps?).IIRC we had 1500-1600 freight cars and 17 industries that used mostly covered hoppers,boxcars,tank cars and gons.
Flashwave: Brakie: I agree there's a problem when all trains are run to and from Staging. The problem with yard to yard is it can become as much a ping-pong tournement as Staging can. The big issue being if a lot of industires on a layout don't play well with each other. Ideally, a car comes form Staging, goes to Yard A who loads it with say scrap metal. It then goes to yard B where it drops that in the blast fourncace and recieves raw steel, which it then goes back to Yard BV who passes it to Yard C who puts that Steel into a company who makes something out of ut, puts back into that car, and then it goes back to Staging where that product is sold. How many layouts are there big enough to host four industires that chain together like that? Not many, relative to the number of smaller layouts out there. the club I'm in can almost do that, if we had a place to put a furnace. But in a 40x60, there's not one. And worse, we're modelling SOuthern Indiana, which unlike the Northern end, has a dearth of Metal Frncaes. And a lot of chained industries like that can't all be found in a proptypical area, so it HAS to go into Staging to connect the dots. Or, yared masters keep sending cars to another yard because there's nothing they can do with that car.
Larry, in my view, comparing what goes on at some club, to even the largest home layouts, is apples and oranges. The OP is building HIS OWN layout, not a club layout.
Club layouts are run by committee, that's why I don't belong to any.
Large layout or small, for me modeling two terminals is too much terminal, not enough mainline - UNLESS you have the largest of spaces and choose the smallest of prototypes.
Example - 800 to 1200 sq ft and you model the Ma & Pa on two decks - then you could make both York, Baltimore, and the run between them believable.
And even then I would have a hidden continuous run connection.
Sheldon: Club layouts are run by committee, that's why I don't belong to any.
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One paint brush does cover all clubs..None of the pass clubs I was a member of had a committee nor does the club I am a member of now have a committee...
All of the clubs I been a member of has been the laid back type of club with very little rules or bylaws that would hinder anybody from having fun as a member..
BRAKIE Sheldon: Club layouts are run by committee, that's why I don't belong to any. ------------------------- One paint brush does cover all clubs..None of the pass clubs I was a member of had a committee nor does the club I am a member of now have a committee... All of the clubs I been a member of has been the laid back type of club with very little rules or bylaws that would hinder anybody from having fun as a member..
I was refering more to the development of track plans and operational schemes, clubs are either the efforts of only a few, without regard for others or are full of ineffective compromise.
I been to see a lot of layouts, club and private. Only a few few club layouts have ever left me impressed.
Even though I greatly enjoy group operation, I would just as soon be told by a layout owner how he invisions his operation rather than be part of a "team" creating it at a club.
I'm like that in the real world too, make me the boss, or make me a worker bee, either is fine - BUT don't put me on a committee!
I belong to a Round Robin group, each layout owner who hosts the group has his own ideas about operation, it's great fun - and, no dues, no politics, no building, no light bill, no rent, no substandard work on a layout next to excelent work by others.
Most of the layouts in our group are 800 to 1800 sq ft basement filling empires, one belongs to an NMRA MMR and many have been featured on NMRA national and regional convention tours.
Maybe when more complete, mine will join them.
Still happy to only model one freight yard, one large pasenger terminal, etc.
And still happy I can "run trains" for non railroader "fun" as well as "operating sessions"
Sheldon:
In responding I take in account that you have never visited my layout, and I (to my knowledge) have never visited yours. That said, we do a lot of switching at Oklahoma City yards (there are 3 yards progressing north from Flynn yard). The staging from Texas is partly hidden in the mole hole area, where trains are manipulated manually by an operator but 7 of the tracks come into Oklahoma City as part of Flynn yard and are worked with switch engines. The yard at Enid is mostly large grain elevators and support tracks for the over 200 grain cars that move in and out, plus the small Enid yard for sorting cars going to local industries. The grain consists are already staged at the elvators when the session begans and are already billed for the movements they will make during the session. Thus little switching. However as those cars are routed out, new cars are coming into the elevators, both loads and empties and are spotted accordingly. At Guthrie, mainline continues north to Arkansas City and staging, the Enid district branches off and runs down to the middle deck, passing each town on the real branch modeled as they were in 1989.
The Oklahoma City complex is on the top deck, the Enid district yard on the middle deck. The bottom deck contains Kiowa staging (4 tracks of cars off the transcon mainline) and Waynoka, which is visible but is a staging area, not switched. Then there is the BN line from Tulsa, staging, to Avard OK., feeding more trains and cars.
Point is, the layout, while not perfect, keeps operators very busy, trains are arriving, terminating, leaving, switch engines are working yards, and we are pretty happy with the results. Obviously nothing is perfect, but it fits our needs.
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Bob,Sounds like some railroadin' goin' on there..
I've got an ops session tomorrow night, 20 operators. We'll run about 45 trains. Other than locals and coal shifters, all will originate and terminate in staging. All road freights come onto my railroad from an interchange, swap engines and caboose and run the railroad. At the other end, they swap engines and caboose and run off the railroad. Other than set out/pick up along the line, all road trains operate over the entire railroad. I have 45 staging tracks.
Are staging tracks essential - probably not, depends on how you want to operate. They fit our ops just fine (another guy in the group has almost 90 staging tracks).
http://www.youtube.com/user/ClinchValleySD40
http://www.flickr.com/photos/52481330@N05/
http://www.trainboard.com/railimages/showgallery.php/cat/500/page/1/ppuser/8745/sl/c
Pastor Bob,
No, I have not visted your layout, but I have read the article about it and followed your writings on the forum.
It appears and sounds that you have captured very well the particular railroading operation you set out to model. That makes it a great layout in my view.
And you have explained the hows and whys of it very well. I am sure it is great fun to operate and I would enjoy the challenge of learnng the details and actually operating it - just as I do with my friends here locally who all have different modeling goals and approaches.
I only entered this conversation because I got some sense the OP's goals were somewhat similar to mine and that a discription of my layout and operational concept might help him decide what would work for him.
For me personally, I quickly become bored with being the "Engineer". On Operating night I would much rather be the yard master or dispatcher, or a tower operator.
My layout is designed accordingly - alone or with a group I can run 6-7 trains at once, switch the industries while the mainline busily runs on its own, or I can be the dispatcher for 20-30 trains over an evening session.
Another note of import - you model the movement of grain, in the Mid West, in the era of the grain hopper, I model the East, in the early 50's, in the Piedmont Platue, coal mining and 1950's manufacturing, steam locos and local passenger service, a whole different world, presented in a whole different way. Who knows if I understood as well as you the aspect of railroading you model, and was of a mind to model it, my layout might be much like yours.
And, for me, when non railroaders show up, I can throw a couple switches, and put five seperate loops into action, then run a train in the yard/belt line on top of that.
Again, long, realiastic mainline trains, making their way through the country side (almost all of my upper deck is devoid of industies and just represents the "miles" between sub division points) was a major goal - I know it's a goal some "operation" oriented modelers find boring, but again my goal was "well rounded" model railroad.
I do enjoy the "railfan" effect as much as any other aspect of model trains. So the one yard, one passenger terminal, one "working location" approach works well for me.
I do enjoy the "railfan" effect as much as any other aspect of model trains. So the one yard, one passenger terminal, one "location" approach works well for me.
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Nothing wrong there if one likes to watch trains roll off the miles.I do that each year during the county fair.Thankfully I can stand an gab since my equipment operates derailment free and thus there's no need to keep a constant watch...
Aikidomaster I am planing a point to point railroad although I am getting family pressure for continuous run. If I stick with the point to point concept, are staging yards worth the space? I have an interest in running at least two passenger trains (eastbound and westbound). I want to interchange with other railroads. I am modeling the N&W in 1955. I want to interchange with the Southern and possibly the C&O. Staging tracks seem to be the answer but man they can eat up space.
I am planing a point to point railroad although I am getting family pressure for continuous run. If I stick with the point to point concept, are staging yards worth the space? I have an interest in running at least two passenger trains (eastbound and westbound). I want to interchange with other railroads. I am modeling the N&W in 1955. I want to interchange with the Southern and possibly the C&O. Staging tracks seem to be the answer but man they can eat up space.
Some thoughts on this question:
If you want to model trains arriving from elsewhere, or departing for elsewhere, during the operating session, or if you want to run more trains during the session than sensibly can fit on the layout at the start of the operating session and at the end of the operating session, staging is a very good idea.
If you have room (in a sensible manner) for the number of trains you want to run during the session on the modeled part of the layout at the start of the session, if you are happy with starting the session with trains "having just arrived" and end the session with trains "about to depart", or if you can live with taking a break during a session to fiddle cars and engines on and off the layout, you don't strictly speaking need staging.
You can also model interchange with other railroads (and with other trains on your own railroad) without staging - having a track where other railroads has dropped off cars for your railroad "earlier", with you leaving cars for the other railroad to pick up "later". Works e.g. for small switching layouts, where modeling the actual arrival in the area and departure from the area may not be an important part of the design criteria.
So it all comes down to how you want to run trains on your layout.
Aikidomaster What are your opinions and experiences? My layout will be in a 20x 30 foot room (more or less). I plan single track mainline with passing sidings and of course industries. I am constructing a yard that will be about 1/2 way. It will have the mainline, 2 arrival/departure tracks, 5 classification tracks, servicing facilities, turntable and roundhouse.
What are your opinions and experiences? My layout will be in a 20x 30 foot room (more or less). I plan single track mainline with passing sidings and of course industries. I am constructing a yard that will be about 1/2 way. It will have the mainline, 2 arrival/departure tracks, 5 classification tracks, servicing facilities, turntable and roundhouse.
It might possibly be a good idea to have your yard instead of being located in the middle of the layout is located right next to staging. Trains run from staging into the yard, swap power, cabooses, set out and pick up blocks of cars and maybe departs again into staging (or across the rest of the layout).
Then the rest of your layout can be dedicated to local switching, or over the road operations of various kinds - would gives you some short runs (staging to yard + yard ops), and some longer runs (yard across layout - possibly to a second staging on the other end of the layout).
Also, if you can form a hidden connection loop through run-through staging, it might be easier to reset trains for your next operating session (or later in the session) - some trains doesn't change much between each session.
Lots of ways of doing things - what would work for you depends on what aspects of a huge subject you want to model :-)
Smile, Stein
sounds good to me. I might mention that when operating I often work the "mole hole" which covers staging for both Oklahoma City and Arkansas City. I am short on staging tracks at Ark City so those trains get worked quickly coming and going.
You are quite right, our layouts model different areas, times and traffic. Maybe some day I can visit yours. Until then, have a great day.
When you say "point to point" do you mean modelled terminus to another modelled terminus? If so that's not the best configuration for operation and not common in the prototype.
Why not have a continuous run and have staging on that run? You can use the staging to represent both ends of a line for operation as you need it.
Mark
I currently have a twelve track run-through staging yard with three other stub end staging yards. This allows me to run numerous trains during an operating session.
It also allows for continuous running even though I do not use the staging yard in that manner except for open houses. It makes for an easy restaging since it is a run-through.
I am assisting a friend on his RR and I designed two stub end staging yards that face each other with one run-through track between them. This is used for continuous run if desired but also aids in restaging. I just pull the train through the run through track and back it into the stub staging for the next session.
Len
Can you drop two tracks below the layout? One to drop the unit train and the other to rise it up when you want it? Lots of space is wasted both above and below the main level. Train detection and switch leg path wiring are easy if you take your time.
Haven't read all of the replies to your post but I'll still toss out a couple of ideas although they might duplicate others:
And in direct answer to your question, I'd say, "Absolutely". I'd even say that staging tracks are more important than just about any other feature except perhaps the main track connecting the staging yards. For example, you could model a bridge line like RF&P or P&WV or a piece of a transcontinental like ATSF, UP, etc. with nothing but staging and a main line. And, as others have indicated, there is no such thing as too many staging tracks; you'll always wish you had another one for that seldom run circus train, steam excursion, live stock extra, troop train, etc., etc.
ChuckAllen, TX
Aikidomaster Elmer, Went to your webpage and saw your layout. It looks great!!. I love the control panel that you built. What kind of material did you use for the panel itself? The graphics on the panel are superb. What did you use for them?
Elmer,
Went to your webpage and saw your layout. It looks great!!. I love the control panel that you built. What kind of material did you use for the panel itself? The graphics on the panel are superb. What did you use for them?
Sorry to be so late in getting back to you.
The control panel material is Masonite. Painted with a spray can primer, then a gloss green. The graphics are R/C model airplane striping tape. It is thinner than regular chart tape sold in stationary stores. The panel plans were laid out and printed from a graphics program then traced on the panel. Switch holes were drilled first, then the tape applied.
Elmer.
The above is my opinion, from an active and experienced Model Railroader in N scale and HO since 1961.
(Modeling Freelance, Eastern US, HO scale, in 1962, with NCE DCC for locomotive control and a stand alone LocoNet for block detection and signals.) http://waynes-trains.com/ at home, and N scale at the Club.
Staging tracks / yards are worth the investment weather you are going to interchange or not. The really big question is; Will I have the room to build one? Another major consideration that is quite often overlooked is where it will go. A lot of club and home layouts in an effort to cram more into less quite often have scenery or another level located right over the staging yards. This is great for getting too much where it really doesn't belong, but the down side of this is physical accessability to this area, especially if track maintainance becomes necessary. Clubs and individuals have had many a nightmare over this.
When I built my staging area, I looked at all of the problems that everyone else had had and avoided them all. IF you build a staging area, do it in an area where you will always have clear open access, and then have fun.
Staging tracks are definitely worth it. In your case, try double-ended staging. Eastbound trains enter and terminate in "east" staging, then next session are magically "west" trains headed east again. The westbound trains do the same thing but in the other direction. This also gives you the option of continuous running if a track is kept clear. The ladders will chew up some room but get creative. Use the smallest turnout that will reliably handle your cars. If you don't need number eights leave them at the hobby shop. And make the staging accessible; if it's hidden you can use Atlas track but if it's exposed I would upgrade for looks. Or whatever matches your current track.
Charles Kneipp
Check out the Western Route of the Boston and Maine by Mike Hamer. It can be found in the trackplan database. This is a 13' x 11' layout with hidden staging which can operate 40+ car consists which leave you scratching your head and saying " Where did that come from?". I have had the pleasure of spending a couple of afternoons with Mike and learning some of his secrets which I plan to adapt to my layout design. Also check out his " Friday Night Group " blog on Blogger.com to see photos. This layout has been featured in Great Model Railroads 2004 including the cover photo. I think you will be amazed what Mike has managed in such a small space.
Laidlaym When you say "point to point" do you mean modelled terminus to another modelled terminus? If so that's not the best configuration for operation and not common in the prototype. Why not have a continuous run and have staging on that run? You can use the staging to represent both ends of a line for operation as you need it. Mark
Mark,Yes yard to yard.
Mark:
If so that's not the best configuration for operation and not common in the prototype.
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Absolutely is..Freight cars are reclassified into trains bound for another yard only to be reclassified into another train bound for another terminal.This is how railroads move freight by trains destined to various cities and interchanges.Every railroad has several large yards to classify trains and each train is built by destination blocks.
A good point to point operation with staging blows loop running away for those that is into serious operations since you feel like you're actually going from point A to point B since you pass through the scenery once and must "return" to your home terminal by running a train back to your home terminal-just like real railroad men.
Yes,you can operate with a loop but,its not the same in my opinion.
Huh??? The Santa Fe railroad ran from Chicago to Los Angeles, that is point to point. In fact and reality point to point is used by every common carrier, pretty common I say. I model a portion of the Santa Fe running north/south in Oklahoma. My northern terminal is Arkansas City Ks which is represented by a hidden staging area. When train 39 leaves Arkansas City, is is coming out of a staging yard, and first appears on the railroad at Guthrie OK coming out under a bridge. It remains visible through Oklahoma City and continues into the south staging yard which is also out of sight.
It is what the real 39 train did, it is what it does on my layout. The difference is the visible part is modeled, the rest is hidden staging tracks representing the north and south terminals. Hope this makes it a little more clear. But, 39 never did run around in circles getting from Ark City to OK City.
BRAKIE Laidlaym: When you say "point to point" do you mean modelled terminus to another modelled terminus? If so that's not the best configuration for operation and not common in the prototype. Why not have a continuous run and have staging on that run? You can use the staging to represent both ends of a line for operation as you need it. Mark Mark,Yes yard to yard. ------------------------ Mark: If so that's not the best configuration for operation and not common in the prototype. ---------------------------- Absolutely is..Freight cars are reclassified into trains bound for another yard only to be reclassified into another train bound for another terminal.This is how railroads move freight by trains destined to various cities and interchanges.Every railroad has several large yards to classify trains and each train is built by destination blocks. A good point to point operation with staging blows loop running away for those that is into serious operations since you feel like you're actually going from point A to point B since you pass through the scenery once and must "return" to your home terminal by running a train back to your home terminal-just like real railroad men. Yes,you can operate with a loop but,its not the same in my opinion.
Laidlaym: When you say "point to point" do you mean modelled terminus to another modelled terminus? If so that's not the best configuration for operation and not common in the prototype. Why not have a continuous run and have staging on that run? You can use the staging to represent both ends of a line for operation as you need it. Mark
Larry, Here's the thing, or things, that make through staging attractive to many of us:
One medium sized double ended staging yard can often be done in less space than two terminal yards. Especially if that staging is below or behind other "sceniced" protions of the layout.
How train orders are written determines train movements, not the track configuration. Layouts I operate on with through staging terminate all trains at the yard, and those crews are generally given trains returning back the way they came - same "effect" as what you discribe, just that now only half the trains have to be "worked" in yards, balancing the typically short mainline run of most (even some of the largest) model railroads with the amount of yard work to be done.
I have one visable yard in the middle of the run that gets "worked" and then have eight other sources/destinations for the trains that enter or leave that yard. It provides more operational variety in less space with the same or less track and allows for all aspects of operation, not just the endless shifting of freight cars - it supports passenger trains, commuter service, bridge traffic, unit trains from off scene industries or going to off scene destinations, etc.
BUT it still works just like a point to point when you want it to. Or better yet in my case points to points, just like a real rail system. Eight sources/destinations all connected by my 8 scale miles and having to be handled at my sub division point.
My goal is to represent ALL aspects of railroading in my region in the era modeled, not just the work of a local freight. It's 1954 here. The mail and express has to be moved, the varnish must be on time, locals bring people from the rural areas to the larger cities for shopping and work, this new piggyback thing must be kept on schedule, the coal needs to reach east coast ports, and bridge traffic from midwest manufacturing must reach east coast cities and so on.
My trains only run through each scene once? they go from a staging point, to the main yard/sub division terminal. Some terminate there, some originate there, some just stop there, setting out or picking up cuts of cars, having power changed, etc. - then proceeding to one of the other staging "destinations" were they terminate. BUT with much of the staging being theough staging, that train is now ready for the next session, or, God forbid in some minds, ready to be a "different train" later in that same session. This saves time and wear/tear because equipment is seldom if ever handled by 0-5-0 switchers for "restaging".
But no where does my mainline pass through the same scene twice and we don't run "laps" to lengthen the run - it's already eight scale miles.
I realize your goals for your layout are different, that's why your layout is different - not everyone shares your goals. If ALL you want to do is be the "Engineer" and "work the yard" and/or "work the local", I guess point to point is fine - I expect more.
As stated before, I would likely never build a point to point layout - because of the nature of my interests and my understanding of the limitations of space and time in operating our models. Yet, for the purpose of operating sessions, I often treat a continuous layout as if it is point to point, only using the "connection" as staging feature, making the modeled portion of the layout seem more connected to the "off stage" world.
Larry, I bet if you came to an operating session on some the through staging layouts I know of and/or have operated, you find their operation and their operators pretty "serious".
Texas Zepher
Your point is well taken about having the main yard in the middle of the layout and taking up too much space. When I started this new layout with my father-in-law (who recently passed away), we were thinking of having a continuous run layout. As I have become more interested in operations, I began to rethink the continuous run concept and have since decided to go with a point to point. That being said, I have always been fascinated with rail yards. I like the visual aspect of a roundhouse and turntable and the rest of the associated servicing facilities. I have read several of the books by Kalmbach with respect to operation, freight yards, servicing facilities, and coaling operations. I like switching, but want to have a purpose to it (prototypical operations). I saw a plan in the Freight Yards book with the mainline, 2 arrival/departure tracks, and 4 classification tracks. Adding servicing facilities fit what I liked. I was at the point in layout construction where starting the yard was the next project. I am about 3/4 complete with the track portion. I have the servicing tracks leading to the turntable installed but not the turntable. You are right!! This ate up a lot of my real estate!! Over the past 6 months, I have become interested in passenger service for N&W and the Southern. So, at this point, I started thinking more seriously about staging tracks at each end of the point to point layout. I like your idea of staging tracks at a lower level. Thanks!!
Craig North Carolina
Sheldon: I realize your goals for your layout are different, that's why your layout is different - not everyone shares your goals. If ALL you want to do is be the "Engineer" and "work the yard" and/or "work the local", I guess point to point is fine - I expect more.
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Actually that's bare root railroading and the type I did for 9 1/2 years...I worked the yard pool,then the local(city) pool on the PRR on the Chessie I was working the road pool..Railroading is you either switching cars in a yard,working a local,mine run,transfer or running between point A and B.
Sheldon: Larry, I bet if you came to an operating session on some the through staging layouts I know of and/or have operated, you find their operation and their operators pretty "serious".
I have and enjoyed the operation except for 1 layout that was more of a marathon in seeing how many of the same trains could be ran between staging...The yard crews stood around most of the night twiddling their thumbs.The owner finally lost his operating crew and after a year tore out the layout and made one that he could run solo.
To this day he still blames the crew for having to tear out his layout when the real blame is on his shoulders..His layout had lots of operation potential but,it laid there since he said: "Nobody wants to stand around waiting on a train to be made up." Had he developed a good operating scheme that included both yards and both staging yards it would have been a pleasurable operation experience.
Larry: "Actually that's bare root railroading and the type I did for 9 1/2 years...I worked the yard pool,then the local(city) pool on the PRR on the Chessie I was working the road pool..Railroading is you either switching cars in a yard,working a local,mine run,transfer or running between point A and B."
And my operating scheme provides all those functions and creates jobs for yardmasters, dispatchers and tower operators as well as engineers. My single visable yard is designed to occupy two yard crews, a hostler, and a local crew, all at the same time - and with DC no less.
Again, I suggest you don't blame the layout infrastructure for poorly designed operating schemes.
If yard cews are standing around, something is wrong, but its not automaticly that the layout has through staging or a continuous connection. I don't see a "cause and effect" relationship there.
AND, my layout plan specificly allows for operation by a crew of operators OR just me. This flexiblity was a must have since I do not see my participation in the hobby as being dependent on others, dispite having the room for an 8 scale long mainline.
Not everybody wants to be the engineer, at least not all of the time, and not everybody always wants house full of people to enjoy their own layout.