Lionel 11580 Promotional Outfit

[El Fixes Things]

Hey all

It is an absolute pain to load the forum! Wayne, if you're watching somewhere, I see why you decided you'd had enough...

Regardless, that's not what brings me here.
Today I visited my favorite train place while on vacation, and spent more than I'd hoped to spend on some things I probably didn't need 
One of those things was a set box I saw in the store, outfit 11580. With the power of the handy dandy super computer in my pocket, I looked the set number up (just to get some sense of what the set contents were). Soon I was poking around the store looking for all the set components. I managed to find most of them, and upon close inspection was able to confirm that what seemed to be all the original paperwork was still in the box.

The biggest shocker of all was when I returned to where me and my folks are staying, and gave it a test, I found that the little 1062 was more than happy to run for me, and not once did the reverse unit jam up! Despite the poor reputation of the plastic 'scout' motor, this little loco somehow behaves perfectly despite being bone dry.

Anyhow, I was going through the paperwork, and I noticed something. When I'd looked the step up online, I found the following listing: https://www.grahamstrains.com/store/Lionel-11580-Train-Set-from-1963-64-Un-Catalogued-Postwar.html

Two things stand out to me here. The first is "yowza, someone paid 170 bucks for this??"
The second, is "oh neat, I have a timeframe of when this set was produced"

But then I looked closer at the paper included in my set, and noticed that the instruction manual was clearly marked with both the set number, and a date of 1966. And the service station directory included in the box was dated 1966-1967. 

If this set was produced from 1963 to 1964, then how come my set has 1966 dates on the paperwork? If it was just the directory, you could make a case it wasn't original to the set. But I think it's pretty incriminating that the instruction sheet bears both the number of the outfit and the year 1966. The presence of the 1966-67 directory makes sense if the set was produced in 1966. Of course, the date on an instruction manual doesn't automatically tell you the year the train was made, but again- the service station directory is for 1966 into 1967. I find it hard to believe that Lionel would include an outdated directory in a new set, or a directory for a time span that was significantly in advance of when the set was produced. I would assume, whatever was the current service station directory, was what got included. Whoever was authorized for the 1966-67 year would have gone into it, and it would be packed with train sets produced in advance of the holiday shopping season (which, afaik, is around when Lionel catalogs went out- ie, the 1956 catalog came out in september or october, and described what trains Lionel was currently producing- until it was superseded by the 1957 catalog next fall).

Personally, I just picked this up because I have a twisted sense of appreciation for Lionel's bizzare and fascinating 'scout' motor, and the strange way it achieves bi-directional operation, and because it looked like a chance to purchase my first ever boxed postwar Lionel set. The fact it was uncatalogged was just an added bonus treat!

I guess this is a long winded way of getting here, but I have a few questions for the CTT community (or whoever's left after refreshing their browser 5 times just to see this post).

1. does anyone else have this set in their collection?
2. does anyone have ideas about where Grahm's Trains may have gotten their figures for when the 11580 outfit was produced? Ideally, I'm hoping someone has access to an information source from which this could have originated- either an original set with paperwork that lines up with these years, or a book, article, etc.
3. Does anyone know more about this promotional outfit? Who was it produced for/how was it available to the consumer? How long was it offered/advertised for? Roughly how many of this outfit were produced?
4. Is this set actually worth collector bucks, or is it as unremarkable and passé as I think it is?

I don't have pictures right now, everything's been neatly packed up for the trip home, but next week I'll attempt to share some pictures.

take care all

-Ellie
PS: if you want to respond but hate using the forum, and happen to have my E-Mail... feel free to reach out that way

[Flintlock76]

Hi Ellie!  

Let me tell you, getting on the Forum isn't as bad as it was a few weeks ago!  It's still not as fast as I'd like but at least it's usable.

OK, I hit my books on the Lionel 11580 set and unfortunately I couldn't find a thing about it.  I DID find references to two other non-Scout sets, a 11560 diesel set produced in 1965-1966 and a 11590 diesel passeger set produced in 1966. Assuming Lionel kept the numerical sequence for all the sets I'd guess that 11580 set is a 1966 product.  But as I said I'm just guessing.  I'd also guess that Scout set may have been produced as a promotional item or a special sale item for a hardware store or auto parts chain for sale during the Christmas season and as such was probably an "off the books" item, for lack of a better term.

Here's a You Tube site I like to visit.  The poster's done several videos on maintaining Scout motors so you may want to have a look.  The vids are well-done and easy to follow.

https://www.youtube.com/c/dagryffynhobby/featured 

Spent more than you wanted to?  Yeah, isn't that always the way?  

Oh, I'll be e-mailing you anyway with some shots of my latest project, if you'd like to pass them along I've no objection.  It's my contribution to the current "Fantasy Locomotive Paint Scheme" fad. 

[smokey1]

Set 11580 is a promotional set 1966

1062-75 with light and reverse unit

6401-25 flat car

3364-8 logs (3) 

3176-50 Hooper car

6167-100 caboose ( unmarked yellow )

8 curve track

10 straight track

1 uncupler unit ( black plastic piece ) 

1025-25 45 Watt transformer

 

[smokey1]

my info comes from Lionel's Promotional Outfits 1960-1969 by John W. Schmid

[El Fixes Things]

Thanks for digging up all this info Wayne and Smokey!

Wayne, technically 11580 isn't a scout set, as Lionel's 'scout' line of trains was only produced from 1948 to 1952. Lionel abandoned the 'scout' branding and its weird, incompatible couplers by 1953, though some of the tooling created for the scout line continued to see use.

I have worked on the plastic 'scout' style motor before, it's a fascinating creature. I'm glad there are people on YouTube tackling them, they seem largely neglected by Lionel collectors and operators (for good reason of course)- but they have their charm, and there were so many produced that one could have a lot of fun trying to collect all of the different plastic-motored steamers Lionel offered from 1948 to 1969. And aside from being noisy, they're really not all bad. Sure they typically can't pull a lot, but you can still have a lot of fun with them.

Smokey, that list of set components is very helpful. I do have a few points of confusion though.
According to your info, the caboose should be an unmarked 6167-100 in yellow. But all the pictures I could find on the web (from four seperate listings) have the set with an unpainted red 6167 that is heat stamped "Lionel Lines" and 6167 on the side.
The other thing that doesn't add up for me is that your info indicates the set had 10 sections of track- however, the instruction manual included with the set clearly depicts an oval with 8 curves and 2 straights. Additionally, one of the listings I found has a different style box with a paper label listing the set contents, which state 8 sections of curved track and 2 sections of straight track:

There is currently a set listed on eBay, which seems to lack the paperwork my set has, but does include an oval of track with 8 curves and two straights. The one sold by Grahm's Trains included 8 curves and 8 straights, but looking at the listing photos, some of the straights have black ties, and some have unpainted ties, and some are clearly mpc. I'm inclined to believe that all except the unpainted ties were not original to that set.

When I found my set, the box was full of track. Way more than 8 curves and 10 straights, one straight had the manual uncoupler on it. The paperwork was there, the envelope for the lockon and wires (with a tiny lubricant tube sitting inside), logs for the 6401, but no trains. In a nearby box was the 1062 loco and the 1045 transformer. In another box, the hopper. and in yet another box full of cabooses and caboose parts I found a red, heat stamped 6167 shell.

Glad to have the confirmation of 1966, and I think I figured out where the 1963-64 date came from. If you look up the 1062 in the Greenberg guide to postwar Lionel from the '80s, the book says it was catalogued and made from 1963-1964 with an 0-4-0 wheel arrangement, but was also made as a 2-4-2 for an uncatalogued set.
Four variations are listed, with Variations A, B, and D having an 0-4-0 wheel arrangement. The notes for Variation C say the following:
"2-4-2, short headlight, drive rod without crosshead, 1050T slope back tender with galvanized base, AAR trucks, fixed coupler, tab fasteners for frame. Contact on front tender truck provides additional ground. Came with uncatalogued set 19500. C. Rohlfing Collection.

Note that the information provided by the guide would suggest that the 2-4-2 version of the 1062 was produced exclusively for this uncatalogued set, which is clearly not the case.

This next bit is maybe going out on a limb here, but...
I looked up set 19500 on the web, and found multiple pictures of the set with its original box. It comes in a white box with the oval logo that has the red and blue arrows around the word "Lionel". That got me thinking. I looked up "Lionel 1963 set box" and "Lionel 1964 set box", and found mostly pictures of flat pack boxes that were off-white (due to age?) and orange, with "Lionel" in big letters above an illustration of a steamer and a Santa Fe F-unit.
Compare that to the set box for 19500, which is a bright white, with the oval arrow logo and "Electric Train Set" across the top, above an illustration of a Berkshire pulling a 6026w style tender, B&M boxcar, green log car, orange tank car, poultry car, Timken boxcar, and green unlettered gondola.
This appears to be a style of set box Lionel used starting around 1965(?) through as late as 1968 or 1969.
Anyhow, my thought process here is that it would seem like set 19500 was produced no earlier than 1965, by the type of box used (please speak up if you have reason to think otherwise). Additionally, the only two sets I currently know anything about to include the 2-4-2 version of the 1062 seem to both have been produced later than 1964, and for uncatalogued sets. This would incline me to think the 2-4-2 version was specifically produced for inclusion in uncatalogued sets, and was produced after the 0-4-0 1062.

On a similar note, the unpainted red, white lettered 6167 caboose is listed in the Greenburg guide as 1963 production. And yet I think there's reasonable evidence that set 11580 included a lettered, red 6167 caboose (all the sets I found pictures of online had a red caboose with white lettering, a galvanized chassis that holds the shell down with tabs, and has one operating and one solid coupler)

Afaik, there was never a 3176 hopper car- I assume therefor that the 3176-50 hopper should be a 6176-50 hopper.
Looking again at my Greenberg Guide, the two variations listed for the black 6176 hopper pertain to 1966 outfit 11560 (one operating, one solid coupler) and outfit 19500 (two solid couplers). Note that outfit 19500 is the same one I was previously discussing the box of. I also note that pictures I found of 19500 show it with a 6167 red caboose with white lettering, like what I see in pictures of set 11580.

I'm not entirely sure how to wrap all this musing up, but the general summary is
-Surprising nobody, a nearly 40 year old old toy train guide book from before the days of the internet seems to contain some outdated/incomplete/innacurate information
-There may be a correlation between the wheel arrangement of a 1062, what year it was produced, and whether it was a catalogued or promotional item.
-Pictures of outfit 11580's components I've been able to find on the internet seem to differ slightly from the components listed in Lionel's Promotional Outfits 1960-1969 by John W. Schmid which Smokey kindly shared.

I don't think there's enough evidence or knowledge on my end to make any definitive statements about anything, but there's a lot of food for thought.

I still need to find the correct tender for my 1062, and a correct chassis for the caboose.
Anyhow, that's all for now! Will try to get some pictures of the paperwork today, but I might not get to it.

-Ellie
PS: Very slick lookin steamer, Wayne! The matching caboose looks great too. Maybe I need to paint something this summer...