The Last Kick in the Face

[JoeD1981]

Hi everyone,

I've posted a few times before about made in the USA Lionel products and have greatly enjoyed speaking with you.

I've taken the last kick from Lionel I will ever take.

They've sold off the archives.   

I'm probably a bit late to this, since I've been out for a while, but how did this ever come to be?

The archives.  

The collection someone thought was important enough to save, from the FOUNDING OF OUR BELOVED COMPANY, to the dreck that is today.

Yikes.  I'm sorry, that is just wrong.  Those pieces they sold off can't be bought back.  Now they're on EBAY.  Wow.  Just where they belong.  

Howard Hitchcock, on a podcast, said of the decision, "No harm, no foul."

Unbelievable.

He's right up there with Maddox in my estimation.  

Well, to everyone here I've really enjoyed speaking with, thank you for your great thoughts on Lionel and the memories.  

I've spent my last Lionel dollar.

 

[rtraincollector]

To me the real kick started back when they decided that unless your willing to spend the big bucks you can only have Lionchief/Lionchief+. The day of Tmcc/Legacy train sets is gone. Don't take me wrong I really do see the good of Lionchief/Lionchief+ as starter sets or for around the tree. Yes they have controllers that can handle up to 5 engines I think but if you want to run a different engine than is on the controller you need to 1 reprogram for that engine or buy another controller. To me this is really backwards thinking. They took a system that could handle 98 different engine and put you into one that can handle only 5. I to life of me can figure out why so many love this system that was shoved down our throats. To me since Lionel has been taken over it has gone down hil more and more each time they give us a new top man. ( believe me I have better name but trying to be polite here. ) The only trains I buy now as a rule are on the secondary market ( ebay, Choochoo, Trainz etc. ) I've been this way basically for 6 - 8 years. I did buy one new set about 5 years ago, It was Lionel's Legacy New York Freight set. ( may have the name messed up but basically that was it ) And if I remember right that whole set was less than $600 including shipping, and it came with transformer and track ( fas track O-48 curves ) You look at recent adds for the big train suppliers, and about all you can fine is Lionchief or BTO with call for price. If you can't put a price I can't dial your number. 

[phrankenstign]

JoeD1981

The archives.  

The collection someone thought was important enough to save, from the FOUNDING OF OUR BELOVED COMPANY, to the dreck that is today.

Yikes.  I'm sorry, that is just wrong.  Those pieces they sold off can't be bought back.  Now they're on EBAY.  Wow.  Just where they belong.  

I don't understand your objection.  The items haven't ceased to exist.  The items in the archives were only accessible by a handful of employees and invited guests.  Now that they've been auctioned off, many more people will be able to see them, hold them, and perhaps even own them.  Isn't that better for collectors?  Items can be scrutinized much more closely to identify exactly where they fit in Lionel's history.  Before, it was nearly impossible to learn anything new from the few pictures that existed for many of the items.

[Firelock76]

In the museum world it's called "deacessioning." 

Many museums have a lot more artifacts than they can possibly use, so ocasionally they'll sell off said artifacts that haven't been displayed in years, or never have been, strictly to clear space and raise funds.

And, since Lionel's not in the museum business, and whatever's in their archives isn't on display for everyone's  enjoyment and never will be, why not sell it off to those who'll appreciate it?   There's probably a lot of Lionel fans licking their chops over this.

I'm not holding the water for Lionel, I don't work for them or need to make excuses for them, but in a way I understand. 

[Penny Trains]

I look at it this way.  An item in the archives was protected just like an artifact in any museum.  When you put them on the open market, one of a kind items become more vulnerable.  That's my .

[JoeD1981]

I have the distinct feeling this deaccessioning was to make up for the expensive waste of resources that went into those stupid racetracks or whatever they were that have been discontinued.  

This is just disgusting.  Those things had been with the company since before its current leadership was born. 

If you ever get the chance, watch the old video of the "Making of the Hudson."  A far, far cry from this era.  The video is worth watching just to see the original tooling (which is most likely gone forever as well).

[JoeD1981]

Could not agree more.  They have no respect for the company's heritage.  Well, except for when it comes time to rely on it to sell Postwar remakes.  Ugh...

This was a company that built equipment for World War 2.  

[phrankenstign]

Penny Trains

I look at it this way.  An item in the archives was protected just like an artifact in any museum.  When you put them on the open market, one of a kind items become more vulnerable.  That's my .

That's true.  However what were the chances any of us normal folk would have ever seen any of those items in person before?

Not only that......

What if the building the archives were in had been destroyed in a natural disaster or fire?  All of the items could have been destroyed at once.  Having them separated increases the chances of most of them surviving.  I'm sure all who have purchased the items will do their best to protect them---especially if they paid a lot for them.  The collectors I've met do their best to keep their prized items in cases of some sort to prevent any kind of damage.

In the many years CTT has been published, many of the featured layouts and collections have contained numerous one-of-a-kind items along with other formerly archived items.  If those items have survived for decades, I don't see any reason why the archive items won't continue to survive also.

[JoeD1981]

Well, you're right, we might as well liquidate the National Archives as well while we're at it.

Take a look at Porsche, who spends exorbitant sums to reaquire their company's historical cars and items.  The difference?  They have a respect and admiration for their company's products.  This is a huge lack of disrespect by Lionel.  General Mills which was also a company that was in business to profit, was able to keep the archives intact during a bleak period in the company's history.

All the blueprints, drawings, tooling, none of it, has any value to this 'company.'  

I'd been desperately trying to stay loyal all these years, but finally, I can go buy some MTH.  I've never done it, never thought I would, but it's the only option for me.  Maybe Atlas, they look ok as well.

 

[JoeD1981]

Thank you, by the way, to the moderators for letting me get this post out.  I didn't think you would, but it is very much appreciated that you did

 

[rtraincollector]

phrankenstign

Penny Trains

I look at it this way.  An item in the archives was protected just like an artifact in any museum.  When you put them on the open market, one of a kind items become more vulnerable.  That's my .

 

 

That's true.  However what were the chances any of us normal folk would have ever seen any of those items in person before?

Not only that......

What if the building the archives were in had been destroyed in a natural disaster or fire?  All of the items could have been destroyed at once.  Having them separated increases the chances of most of them surviving.  I'm sure all who have purchased the items will do their best to protect them---especially if they paid a lot for them.  The collectors I've met do their best to keep their prized items in cases of some sort to prevent any kind of damage.

In the many years CTT has been published, many of the featured layouts and collections have contained numerous one-of-a-kind items along with other formerly archived items.  If those items have survived for decades, I don't see any reason why the archive items won't continue to survive also.

I agree with what you say about Lionel, but there are companies that do open it to the public, which is the way it should be, GM with the corvette museum ( yes they lost a lot to a sink hole but they recovered a lot also. ) 

[thesiding]

SO The items that were prototype the few the unmade versions are now for sale (Is that not what happened in 1963 when the showroom closed?) Unfortubatley this is happening a lot Ward Kimball's stuff in the hands of the masses (including me got a building and some figures) Trains of Neal Young same (I DID GET the OTHER Milwaukee GP-7 not in the article THE SOLID STRIPE) I have one of those Madison Hardware custom made diners(From the original item) AND got a few trivial items from the Kuhn Auction Pace and Hong STILL paying for them If I WAS the LONE winner in South Carolina...……………………….I would buy lots of this stuff and RoadsIide America AND FIND SOMEWHEER to make a museum. BUT SURE AS HELL I DID NOT WIN Goin south this December Gonna try to stop there AND WHO/WHAT company is selling this jewel of Lionel?

[Firelock76]

Is anyone sure of just what's being sold?  Prototype models, pre-production models, production models plus examples of first-run articles?

If any of the above are in the mix than I can think of ONE very good reason to hold onto them.  IF, and it's a very big if, Lionel decides to return production to the US they'll need something to pattern the new tooling with since the Chinese aren't ever going to give the old tooling back.  With computer controlled machining it would probably be easier to produce new tooling and molds than it was decades ago.

But as I said, it's a very big if.  I'm not holding my breath.

[phrankenstign]

JoeD1981

Well, you're right, we might as well liquidate the National Archives as well while we're at it.

 

There's a huge difference between the National Archives and the Lionel archives:

• The National Archives belong to the American people.  Many of our most valuable documents are on display for everyone to see.  Millions of people have seen---and continue to see---the important items that documented our development as an independent country.
• Lionel's archive area belonged to the company's shareholders.  Very few people had access to anything in it.  Apart from what was shown in the Kalmbach and Greenberg books, little else was known about what was in it.  The pictures those books contained weren't as highly detailed as many collectors would have preferred.  That will probably change significantly now that the new owner of each piece is able to take much better closeups of every side and the interior of those items.  In my opinion, that will enable us to gain much more insight into the development and history of Lionel's products.