Thank you, Peter, for that explanation, and keeping me in tune with what's happening in Melbourne.I was beginning to question my recollection of things
( too many years,
or too many beers ?)
but thank you again for clarifying that the station has been renamed.
I am sitting here with a smile on my face imaging those vintage trams, that I loved riding, rolling along the city circle line, and the new bridges.
It doesn't get any better than that !
Paul
Sorry about that:
Southern Cross IS Spencer Street, renamed around ten to fifteen years ago as part of a major redevelopment.
At this time, or slightly earlier, two major streets, Collins Street and Latrobe Street at the north and south ends of the station were extended into the former freight yard and adjacent docks area which was turned into upmarket housing, offices and a sports stadium.
I'm sure the last part has happened often in the USA, without the renaming and upgrading of the station.
The station gained a strange and costly overall roof which took away many photo opportunities, but the Latrobe Street Bridge provided new angles that made up for all that.
Both Latrobe Street and Collins Street carried tram lines into the new areas of business and accommodation and Latrobe Street became part of the "City Circle" free tram service provided by upgraded tramcars built from the late 1930s to 1955. The most recent of these carry the old green and cream colours, and the Latrobe Street bridge is still an excellent place to photograph them. Taking train photos is more difficult with the new temporary fencing and I fear any more permanent fencing will rule out train photography altogether.
Peter
Hi Peter !
that was an interesting story about railfanning Melbourne. I am familiar with Flinders, and Spencer Street stations, but somehow I am drawing a blank about Southern Cross.
Did I miss something when I was there ? All these years I had recalled my train from Brisbane, and Sydney coming into Spencer Street. My hotel was across the street, so where would Southern Cross be in relation to Spencer ?
I think I was registered on the forums for ten years before I finally subscribed...
and that was largely because the local counter prices of "Trains" went up...
But to return to the original thread topic...
I visited Melbourne a couple of weeks ago around the shortest day of the year (it's winter in this hemisphere) and I went to the Latrobe Street Bridge which gives a view into Southern Cross station, the main terminal station in Melbourne. For those who've been to Chicago, it is like the Roosevelt Road bridge in relation to Chicago Union Station.
Anyway, the bridge has been there for around twenty five years (much less than Roosevelt Road) but as far as I know nothing untoward has happened on the bridge.
But temporary fencing about seven feet high had been bolted to the existing four feet tall railings. These had quite large openings in the mesh but too small for my Nikon lenses (except for the basic 18-55). I found that I could bend the wires apart for some better performing lenses with a longer zoom range. But overall photos of the trains are much harder and need much more planning.
But unlike Roosevelt Road, there are tram tracks on the bridge and the older trams mentioned earlier in this thread run across the bridge in both directions. You just have to get back to the fence quickly to avoid missing train photos.
I hope this example of making train photography much harder doesn't spread, although there are many other examples in Australia and elsewhere...
Well, shucks !
I know from times in the past, when I've let it lapse, within a month I can not log in. I know I can still read the forum, but I figured I would need to log in to reply.
But, I'll have to try it, I guess !
I still have so many bad jokes, and boring stories to share !
You're all in luck !
True! You do NOT need to be a subscriber to post on the forum! So stick around!
Trains, trains, wonderful trains. The more you get, the more you toot!
"...I will lose the ability to log in." I don't think that access to the forum requires being a subscriber, although there are "subscriber extras". You can also participate in the other Kalmbach forums.
Bob Nelson
My subscription has expired, and I will lose the ability to log in.
We will be moving soon, so we are in transition.
I have enjoyed joking around with everyone.
Until we meet again...
Happy Holidays to everyone!
Just messing around today. Here is 25 cresting " Ay Carumba Hill". ( where the tree root lifted the track).
Tree roots have lifted up my track in places, and have added drama to my operations !
Even off the shelf engines get " the beauty treatment".
This engine was kit bashed twice ! First, a standard ten wheeler, with a " Barry's Big Trains" mechanism, and a 5 pound block of lead in the boiler. When another ten wheeler blew out a gear, I swapped its boiler to this mechanism.
She stands proud, though. Had to stretch the boiler back out again, the firebox is actually the saddle tank from the Porter. A new Bachman chassis was purchased for $55, the stack from the Porter, and flickering LED's in the firebox.
Number 25. Where do I start ? The " deconstructed locomotive ". I had this wild idea that I would kitbash a Heisler. I cut down a ten wheeler's boiler, and mounted it on a cut down flat car. I came up with 2 cut down motor blocks. Everything was falling into place. What about the gearing?
Maybe I should have thought of that first !
Talking about locomotive designs ( I know what you're thinking "OMG, there he goes ")
This little beauty rolled out of the BLW ( Bell Locomotive Works)
number 9, affectionately known by train crews as " ol' doohickey"
she started life as an LGB Orenstein and Koppel well tank industrial engine. Picked up a Lehman Porter cab and bell, and a Bachmaann diamond stack and pilot.
Trains of the world are fun to collect. Most of my international stuff is in N. I bought a Rapido Swiss krokodil many years ago,and found the SBB coaches in Interlaken in 2000. It seemed to me there were a disproportionately high number of places in Switzerland selling trains. Not only many train shops, but makes I have never seen before !
I have a DBB boxcab electric, and a fleet of "Shinkansen" from Japan.
We rode the 500 in 1999, it was their latest, and greatest at that time. Now, it's in the museum in Kyoto, superseded by the N 700A, for now...
Anyway, I have a model of the 500.
Only thing I have to represent Australia is an HOn3 Puffing Billy, from PFM.
I say " Hats off to all the locomotive designers of the World". All their creativity, and ingenuity.
So many clever designs !
The drawings of the 4700s didn't show a stoker. I pulled out my English translation of Chapelon's "Locomotive a Vapeur" which includes drawings of both the 4700 (240A) and the later 240P. The 240P was indeed fitted with a stoker.
Apart from the stoker and some effort spent in "cleaning up" the external appearance the main difference between the types was longer stroke cylinders.
The 4700 had cylinders: HP 440x640, LP 650x650
The 240P had cylinders: HP 440x650, LP 650x690
I'm not sure I'd increase the stroke of inside cylinders as my first choice, but these already occupy all the space between the frame plates so the diameter is pretty much set.
Chapelon confirms that the 240P were used on the Sud Est region, the former PLM.
The 240P were converted during WWII but were replaced by the 241P from 1948. It was said of the 241P that they were much heavier for the same power and less "heroic" than the 240P.
Because of the early demise of the 240P, there haven't been ready to run models available.
In 1973 I started collecting Jouef HO gauge models in England, where they were quite cheap to buy. I obtained a 241P and a 141R and I subsequently got a 231K and a 141P. I meant to get a model of 232U1 but it was always too costly. I also have the Rivarossi 231E as a Nord locomotive.
In 1986 I purchased a lot of Jouef HO coaches in Singapore, more than I could carry home easily, so an old school friend put them in the empty 20mm cannon compartment of his Mirage IIIO and flew them back to Butterworth in Malaysia, from where they were shipped back to Australia.
Despite the size involved, this part of the discussion belongs in this forum because people on the MR forum wouldn't understand...
M636C Postwar Paul I guess the Mastodon type was more common than I realized. I was just looking at one of my books the other day, and they were showing a French ( I believe Nord ) Pacific being converted into a 4-8-0. Paul All the rebuilds to 4-8-0 in France were from Paris Orleans locomotives of the 4501 to 4570 series. These were built from July 1907 and were the first Pacific type in Europe. 4541 to 4570 were built by Alco in 1908. Given the dates, all of these were built without superheaters. A further batch, 4571 to 4600, were built with superheaters. These locomotives had 1850 mm driving wheels. Another group of locomotives built with 1950mm coupled wheels were numbered 3501 to 3589, of which the first 20 lacked superheaters. These were all conventional De Glehn Du Bosquet compound locomotives which were relatively inefficient users of steam. The worst performer among these was superheated locomotive 3566, which was rebuilt by Andre Chapelon in November 1929 as the first of a number of locomotives known for their power and economy. In 1931, Chapelon rebuilt locomotive 4521 as a 4-8-0 for the main line to Toulouse which needed more power and adhesion than could be provided by a Pacific, even one with Chapelon's improvements. These Pacifics had what the French call a "trapezoidal" grate, narrow at the front to fit between the trailing coupled wheels, while it angled out to a wide grate at the rear above the trailing truck. This wasn't suitable for a 4-8-0 and was replaced by a long narrow grate based on the designs of that on the Nord 3.1200 "super Pacifics". A further eleven 4700s were rebuilt from saturated 4500s by the Paris Orleans and one of these was tested on the Nord, which required the cab roof being cut down to fit the Nord clearances. The Nord settled on the larger wheeled rebuilt 3500 series, the 3700s and even had a number built new in the late 1930s. Following the formation of the SNCF, 25 further saturated 4500s were rebuilt as a modified 4-8-0 class 240 P (P was a letter used for SNCF standard locomotives). I think these were largely used on the PLM but replaced by the post war 241P Mountains, based on the PLM 241C1. Peter
Postwar Paul I guess the Mastodon type was more common than I realized. I was just looking at one of my books the other day, and they were showing a French ( I believe Nord ) Pacific being converted into a 4-8-0. Paul
Also, the picture I have of the rebuilt 4-8-0 shows the back of the cab, and it looks like they've added a stoker as well. The book mentions adding larger superheaters, poppet valves, and thermic siphons in the firebox, along with other enhancements.
A couple of corrections to the above....
4521 was rebuilt in August 1932, not October 1931. It appears the design process began in 1931.
The locomotive used on the Nord trials was 4707. It had a cut down cab, but that was for subsequent trials on the Etat system to Cherbourg. It did work extensive trials for the Nord, who had 35000s rebuilt as 3700 series Pacifics instead of the 4-8-0s.
I should know that the Nord clearances allowed the original cab profile since I have the Rivarossi model in Nord brown...
Firelock76 If I remember what I read correctly, the Central Pacific tried a 4-10-0 locomotive in the 1870's. Called "El Gobonodor" it was too much, too soon, and the crews that ran it said "All Hell couldn't keep it hot." Well, steam locomotive builders were still kind of making it up as they went along in those days. You learned from your mistakes and just moved on.
If I remember what I read correctly, the Central Pacific tried a 4-10-0 locomotive in the 1870's. Called "El Gobonodor" it was too much, too soon, and the crews that ran it said "All Hell couldn't keep it hot."
Well, steam locomotive builders were still kind of making it up as they went along in those days. You learned from your mistakes and just moved on.
M636C I thought I'd add a bit more about 4-8-0 locomotives. The last new 4-8-0s in North America were built by Baldwin, the first in 1924 following 24 Pacifics with generally similar dimensions, for the National of Mexico. The additional adhesion of the 4-8-0 allowed larger cylinders and a higher boiler pressure in a locomotive only slightly heavier. In France a number of Pacifics were rebuilt into 4-8-0s for increased power from 1937 until the early1940s. Peter
I thought I'd add a bit more about 4-8-0 locomotives.
The last new 4-8-0s in North America were built by Baldwin, the first in 1924 following 24 Pacifics with generally similar dimensions, for the National of Mexico. The additional adhesion of the 4-8-0 allowed larger cylinders and a higher boiler pressure in a locomotive only slightly heavier.
In France a number of Pacifics were rebuilt into 4-8-0s for increased power from 1937 until the early1940s.
M636C Postwar Paul I love the street Railways. I'm happy I was able to ride the classic " Melbourne Trams", back in the day. Here's one last picture for your enjoyment. It's a postcard from Ferrymead in Christchurch. The Christchurch car illustrated is of the type described as a "drop centre", with passengers entering through the open centre of the car which had crosswise seats. In this case, you could enter at the ends as well. Christchurch introduced this design to the South Pacific, although cars to this design had run earlier in San Francisco. Although the earliest Melbourne cars had end entrances, the standard cars did not. The earliest standard Melbourne cars had open centres, but this was soon altered to three doorways, and after 1938, two sliding doors. Christchurch had a working (tourist) tramway in the centre of the old city until the recent earthquake, which used a number of ex Melbourne cars along with a couple of original cars. I think the cars are OK but the extent of damage in the old city meant that services no longer ran. I don't know the current status. Peter
Postwar Paul I love the street Railways. I'm happy I was able to ride the classic " Melbourne Trams", back in the day. Here's one last picture for your enjoyment. It's a postcard from Ferrymead in Christchurch.
I love the street Railways. I'm happy I was able to ride the classic " Melbourne Trams", back in the day. Here's one last picture for your enjoyment. It's a postcard from Ferrymead in Christchurch.
I was in Ch'ch before the tourist line was running, but would love to have seen it !
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