Outside third rail trains

[cnjrailer93]

hey guys. im new to the forum. ive been an avid  train collector for quite some time now. but anyways i was given trains from my great grandfather who was  a model railroader during the fourties and fifties. its alot of postwar lionels but two. i have know little to nothing about them. i was told they use whats called an outside third rail and possibly built from a kit. im looking to see if anyone could shed some light on them. i apoligize for the quality of the pics. thanks,Shane

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[rtraincollector]

you need to use a host site like www.photobucket.com and then post your pics by clicking on the direct link tab and coping it and then open the pitcure looking thing with a ball in the right lower corner and putting you pic in the box and click post. I guess I could of seen them if I wanted to join G-mail but I have 5 mail accounts already don't want tno more.

[cnjrailer93]

sorry about that will get right on it

[cnjrailer93]

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[Firelock76]

That looks like an old O Gauge Scale locomotive.  Those were popular with  O Gauge modelers back in the time frame you mentioned, the 30's, 40's, and 50's.  They ran on two rail track  for an authentic appearance but needed a third rail for power.  The "juice" had to come from somewhere!  I don't think there were any kits available for the third rail, it had to be scratchbuilt.

The New York Society of Model Engineers ran a layout like that back in "the day."  The Morning Sun book  "Trackside in the Northeast 1946-1959"  has some pictures of it on pages four through seven.  The old Lionel promotional film from around 1950  "Iron Ponys"  has some footage as well.   Two-rail O Scale is being built today, but they don't need the third outside rail anymore, at least I don't think they do.

The NYSME is still in operation, and they do have a wbsite, just search for "New York Society...", you get the picture.

[cnjrailer93]

I wonder if they knew my great grandfather. Ill have to contact them.

[Firelock76]

It's very possible.  I assume the "cnj" in your pen-name stands for "Central of New Jersey."  If your great-grandfather was a Jerseyman as I assume you are (and I am) he may have been aware of the NYSME, might even have been a member.  The club has been in Rutherford NJ since the early 50's, and holds open houses on occasion.  No, I'm not a member, I left NJ 25 years ago, long before I got into toy trains again.  The NYSME website is a very interesting one at any rate, well worth checking out.

[dougdagrump]

For many years Cincinnati Gas & Electric, now Duke Energy I believe, would set up a big outside 3rd rail layout during the Christmas period. If memory serves me correctly the layout was initially built by the B&O RR, not sure of the time frame it was first built. Within the past year or two it has been relocted to the restored Cincinnatti Union Terminal, not sure if it has become a year round display or still a seasonal one.

[cnjrailer93]

yes im in central new jersey but at the time he resided in brookyln.

[phillyreading]

The two rail track made today for use with two rail O scale engines won't work with the older trains that need the additional third rail, unless you can make both rails the same polarity or just power one rail. You may have to handlay the outside third rail. Maybe you can buy some parts from Williams to convert those engines to center rail pick-up. If they are steam engines it might be easy to add a center rail pick-up to the tender and run a wire back to the engine.

[phillyreading]

Another thing I ust thought of, those older engines might run on D.C. current, I am not sure. Maybe they have a universal motor that can run on either A.C. or D.C. current. Try to power those engines with a car or motorcycle battery to see if they work.

[phillyreading]

Firelock76

That looks like an old O Gauge Scale locomotive.  Those were popular with  O Gauge modelers back in the time frame you mentioned, the 30's, 40's, and 50's.  They ran on two rail track  for an authentic appearance but needed a third rail for power.  The "juice" had to come from somewhere!  I don't think there were any kits available for the third rail, it had to be scratchbuilt.

The New York Society of Model Engineers ran a layout like that back in "the day."  The Morning Sun book  "Trackside in the Northeast 1946-1959"  has some pictures of it on pages four through seven.  The old Lionel promotional film from around 1950  "Iron Ponys"  has some footage as well.   Two-rail O Scale is being built today, but they don't need the third outside rail anymore, at least I don't think they do.

The NYSME is still in operation, and they do have a wbsite, just search for "New York Society...", you get the picture.

Two rail trains in O scale are just like the H.O. trains, run on D.C. and pick-up power from each rail. You need insulated wheelsets for use with O scale trains for freight and passenger cars. A couple years ago I looked into O scale two rail, but I would have had to change too much track and engines.

[Firelock76]

Oh, they run on DC!  Thanks for that information.  I'm not interested in getting into O Gauge two-railing, but I was curious how the things worked.  Can't afford 'em anyway.

[overlandflyer]

looking at the one picture that doesn't seem to be displayed, the one showing the underside of the chassis, i can't help but think that this model was 3-rail kit that was adapted to run on an outside rail layout.  there wouldn't be any other reason for the hardware cover that appears between the center drive wheels other than to at one time, or alternately, used as an attachment point for a center rail pickup.  in any case, the outside 3rd rail attachment has a kitbashed look to it.

early motors were almost exclusively a/c compatible with wound stators.

cheers...gary

[hscsltb]

Did'nt CTT do an article several years ago about a three rail layout.Older layout built way back that still ran.Lots of mechanical relays and such. If I remember correctly locomotives were Lionel which had been converted to the outside rail and ran on ac.

[DMUinCT]

The Lionel 700E Hudson of the 1930s came with interchangable "center rail pickup rollers" and the "outside 3rd rail pickup arm".

[Firelock76]

There was a custom builder of O Gauge scale locomotives years ago named Max Gray.  He specialized in building models that Lionel and American Flyer didn't.  Bear in mind Lionel and AF were primarily toy makers, the 700E Hudson Lionel built was a radical departure for them.  The locomotive pictured doesn't look like anything Lionel would have built in the old days.   I'd love to hear if it still runs though, it's a beautiful model!

[nickaix]

There is a thread on outside 3rd rail here:

http://cs.trains.com/ctt/f/95/t/135731.aspx?sort=ASC&pi350=1

Quite a few pictures of OTR setups, too.