American Flyer - 1/2 Speed Can Motor

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  • Member since
    July, 2010
  • From: Arizona
  • 181 posts
Posted by azflyer on Monday, January 30, 2012 3:02 PM

The Great American Flyer Can-Motor Race

Reading 300 4-4-2 Atlantic (full-can motor)

                             VS

Pacific 293 4-6-2 NYHL&H (1/2-can motor)

Enjoy the race, and let the debate begain!

AZ-Flyer

 

“Tell me and I’ll forget;Embarrassed show me and I may remember;Smile involve me and I’ll understand.”Big Smile

 

AZ-Flyer@American Flyer Cabinet-top Layout (5'x16'): http://az-flyer.blogspot.com/  

  • Member since
    February, 2011
  • From: Warrington, Pa. 18976
  • 269 posts
Posted by Gray Cat on Monday, January 30, 2012 3:24 PM

lionelsoni

Let me try this again:

I would like to understand how the (1-start) half-speed worm can mate "perfectly" with the same worm wheel that was used with the original (2-start) full-speed worm.  Both worms have the same diameter; so the half-speed worm's thread is at a flatter angle than the full-speed worm's threads (http://sns-trains.com/albums/main.php?g2_itemId=108).  This implies that the worm wheel's teeth should be set at a different, flatter angle, to match the angle of the worm.  Yet it has been said that this is not necessary.  There must be an explanation for how either worm can be used with the same worm wheel.

The only possibilities that I can imagine are (1) that the worm wheel is so thin that the slope of its teeth is unimportant or (2) that the worm wheel is made of something soft that conforms to the shape of the worm.

I understand completely how the locomotive speed varies inversely with number of starts on the worm.  My problem is with the mating of two different worms with the same worm wheel.

Can anyone provide a picture or description of the worm wheel that might clarify how this happens?

 

I have to say Bob, you have me curious on this too. I was just down on my bench looking at a commutator assembly and the pitch of the worm matches the worm gear closely. This is also a fairly angled pitch.

Lover of all things Gilbert, truly a man ahead of his time.

  • Member since
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  • From: Bayville NJ
  • 1,012 posts
Posted by AF53 on Monday, January 30, 2012 9:42 PM

That race reminds me of something I saw awhile back....................

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5-oJ8sBkiIo&feature=related

Ray

Ray

Bayville, NJ

 

Life is what happens to you
While you're busy making other plans - John Lennon

  • Member since
    July, 2010
  • From: Arizona
  • 181 posts
Posted by azflyer on Monday, January 30, 2012 10:15 PM


Pictures Speak Loader than Words
  • This is a cutaway of the American Flyer chassis with wheels removed to expose the worm gear meshing with the drive of the 1/2 speed can-motor. This was bench tested with a Dallee 400  electronic e-unit in slow speed to full speed, forward and reverse.

    AZ-Flyer

     

    “Tell me and I’ll forget;Embarrassed show me and I may remember;Smile involve me and I’ll understand.”Big Smile

     

    AZ-Flyer@American Flyer Cabinet-top Layout (5'x16'): http://az-flyer.blogspot.com/  

    • Member since
      February, 2011
    • From: Warrington, Pa. 18976
    • 269 posts
    Posted by Gray Cat on Tuesday, January 31, 2012 7:36 AM

    AZ that worm looks identical to a stock AF worm.. is the shaft of the worm slightly off center of the motor shaft? Could these half speed motors be reduction geared?

    Lover of all things Gilbert, truly a man ahead of his time.

    • Member since
      July, 2010
    • From: Arizona
    • 181 posts
    Posted by azflyer on Tuesday, January 31, 2012 7:51 PM

    Gray Cat

    AZ that worm looks identical to a stock AF worm.. is the shaft of the worm slightly off center of the motor shaft? Could these half speed motors be reduction geared?

     

    I sent off an e-mail this morning to Doug Peck of Port Lines Hobby Supply where I have been buying these can motors and reverse units. He was nice enough to rely back within two hours. That is “customer service” at its best. Any way this is what I asked him and his reply follows my questions?


    Doug,

    I have a lot information on my web page on can motor conversions, I have now

    completed and still doing.  With this topic  coming up on forums I belong to a lot?

    How does the 1/2 speed can motor work with the worm gear on American

    Flyer Trains to make it go half the speed? Is the 1/2 speed can motor gear reduced to that speed or is it the worm shaft that reduces the speed?

    Everyone is waiting for an answer? I real enjoy the 1/2 speed can-motor

    conversion with the Dallee reverse e-unit in my old AF trains on my train

    layout.  

    Thanks for your help,

    AZ-Flyer

    My personnel web site: Can-motor conversions:

    http://az-flyer.blogspot.com/p/can-motor-conversion.html

    CTT web forum: http://cs.trains.com/TRCCS/forums/t/183434.aspx

    Doug reply was as follows,

    AZ-Flyer,

    Worms on "normal" motors are double-cut, meaning there are actually two

    spiral "tracks" around the shaft. If you look carefully at the bottom of

    the shaft, where the cut begins nearest the motor, you can find two

    locations where the groove begins.

    The scale speed worms are single-cut.....you will only find ONE location

    where the groove begins.....thus as the worm turns, it only spins the

    worm gear (on the axle) at half the speed.

    Both worms mesh perfectly with the worm gear.

    Doug Peck

    Port Lines Hobby Supply

    6 Storeybrooke Drive

    Newburyport, MA 01950-3408

    www.portlines.com

    doug@portlines.com

    Now everyone send him an order, or at lease say, Thank You for his great customer service next time you call or see him.

    AZ-Flyer


     

     

    “Tell me and I’ll forget;Embarrassed show me and I may remember;Smile involve me and I’ll understand.”Big Smile

     

    AZ-Flyer@American Flyer Cabinet-top Layout (5'x16'): http://az-flyer.blogspot.com/  

    • Member since
      December, 2001
    • From: Austin, TX
    • 9,568 posts
    Posted by lionelsoni on Wednesday, February 01, 2012 8:32 AM

    "Both worms mesh perfectly with the worm gear."  Even though the two kinds of worm threads make two different angles with the worm wheel?  I can understand "mesh adequately" if the worm wheel is thin or worn or pliable; but "mesh perfectly" seems impossible except with a worm wheel of zero thickness.

    Bob Nelson

    • Member since
      September, 2004
    • From: Dearborn Station
    • 16,422 posts
    Posted by richhotrain on Wednesday, February 01, 2012 10:04 AM

    lionelsoni

    "Both worms mesh perfectly with the worm gear."  Even though the two kinds of worm threads make two different angles with the worm wheel?  I can understand "mesh adequately" if the worm wheel is thin or worn or pliable; but "mesh perfectly" seems impossible except with a worm wheel of zero thickness.

    Or, maybe mesh "flawlessly".

    Rich

    Alton Junction

    • Member since
      July, 2010
    • From: Arizona
    • 181 posts
    Posted by azflyer on Wednesday, February 01, 2012 10:18 AM

    Lionelsoni,

    Why don't you just buy a 1/2 can motor and a Dallee electronic e-unit and use it on what every. They make it for ac and dc. I run mine with ac with the dc can motors. That is why I buy the Dallee electronic e-unit that is all set up for that purpose. You can bench test the can motor and do all the measuring and checking yourself.

    Don't just hang on, get aboard!

    AZ-Flyer

     

     

     

     

     

    “Tell me and I’ll forget;Embarrassed show me and I may remember;Smile involve me and I’ll understand.”Big Smile

     

    AZ-Flyer@American Flyer Cabinet-top Layout (5'x16'): http://az-flyer.blogspot.com/  

    • Member since
      December, 2001
    • From: Austin, TX
    • 9,568 posts
    Posted by lionelsoni on Wednesday, February 01, 2012 10:27 AM

    Because I don't have any American Flyer trains.  I am just looking for an explanation of the claim that the worm wheel fits two rather different worms perfectly.  I understand how a 1-start worm turns the worm wheel half as fast as a 2-start worm.  I don't doubt that the thing works, but skeptical that the fit is perfect; and I would like to know what the trick is.

    Bob Nelson

    • Member since
      July, 2010
    • From: Arizona
    • 181 posts
    Posted by azflyer on Friday, February 03, 2012 10:32 PM

     

    1/2 Can-Motor Followers,

    I just bench checked out my new restoration project, 1946, #312 4-6-4 (sit). With Dallee electronic e-unit and 1/2 speed can-motor installed . Everything worked as I hoped they would with lots of smoke! That is why I wanted to shut the smoke off. There is times you don't want to keep the garage door open for fresh air? It even gets COLD in Arizona.
    AzFlyer

     

    You can follow this restoration project from start to finish at: 1/2 Speed DC Can-Motor Conversions  and Restoration on American Flyer Model Trains.

     

    “Tell me and I’ll forget;Embarrassed show me and I may remember;Smile involve me and I’ll understand.”Big Smile

     

    AZ-Flyer@American Flyer Cabinet-top Layout (5'x16'): http://az-flyer.blogspot.com/  

    • Member since
      July, 2010
    • From: Arizona
    • 181 posts
    Posted by azflyer on Monday, February 06, 2012 8:41 PM

     

    It's a smoker!
    Just put it on my layout to check it out. It real puts out a lot of smoke running with the 1/2 speed can motor at 12 volts, I had to keep the garage door open for the trial run. Then I shut off the bellow smoke unit for the final break in period. Every thing went well. I have to add a little more wait on the front trucks, because I removed the reverse unit when I installed the Dellee reverse unit with the 1/2 speed DC can motor. I will post some more pictures when I get the Rio Grande decals put on.
    #312-? 4-6-4 with smoke in tender from 1946 (now its a 4-6-2)

     

     

    “Tell me and I’ll forget;Embarrassed show me and I may remember;Smile involve me and I’ll understand.”Big Smile

     

    AZ-Flyer@American Flyer Cabinet-top Layout (5'x16'): http://az-flyer.blogspot.com/  

    • Member since
      July, 2010
    • From: Arizona
    • 181 posts
    Posted by azflyer on Friday, February 17, 2012 8:39 PM

    With close to 2,000 views on this post, how many of you have done a can-motor conversion (1/2 speed or full speed) on American Flyer trains (Steam or Diesel). If so, on what? Pro or Cons? Would you do another American Flyer can-motor conversion? 

    AZ-Flyer 

     

     

     

    “Tell me and I’ll forget;Embarrassed show me and I may remember;Smile involve me and I’ll understand.”Big Smile

     

    AZ-Flyer@American Flyer Cabinet-top Layout (5'x16'): http://az-flyer.blogspot.com/  

    • Member since
      September, 2004
    • From: Dearborn Station
    • 16,422 posts
    Posted by richhotrain on Saturday, February 18, 2012 4:29 AM

    azflyer

    With close to 2,000 views on this post, how many of you have done a can-motor conversion (1/2 speed or full speed) on American Flyer trains (Steam or Diesel). If so, on what? Pro or Cons? Would you do another American Flyer can-motor conversion? 

    AZ-Flyer 

    AZ,

    I did a full speed can motor conversion on my American Flyer Baldwin diesel (#355). 

    I had not run it for over 40 years and when I took it out of storage two years ago, the innards were a total disaster.  When I went off to college, my younger brother "inherited" my two American Flyer train sets, and he was pretty rough on them.

    The Baldwin diesel has the reversing unit was next to the motor, and there were broken and missing parts on both units.  Not having any experience with rehabbing classic toy trains, I opted to buy a full speed can motor and Dallee Electronic Reversing Unit.  The installation was pretty easy, and the performance is great.  My only reservation is that the locomotive runs slower than I would like, but Doug at Portlines tells me that is typical of that particular can motor.

    I also own an American Flyer steam engine (#312) which was in better shape than the diesel when I pulled it out of storage.  At first, I tried to repair the reversing unit, but performance was spotty, so I decided to purchase a Dallee Electronic Reversing Unit and installed it in the tender.  It works flawlessly.

    The motor performance on the steamer is OK after replacing the wiring harness and the brushes, so I left the motor alone.  I had considered a half speed can motor, because the vintage open frame motor is very sluggish until the motor warms up.  But, I hate to trash the original motor, and I fear that the speed of the half speed can will be too slow for my liking, so i have not acted to replace the motor.

    Incidentally, I rehabbed the smoke unit in the steamer, and the smoke performance is awesome.

    Rich

    Alton Junction

    • Member since
      February, 2011
    • From: Warrington, Pa. 18976
    • 269 posts
    Posted by Gray Cat on Saturday, February 18, 2012 6:35 AM

    Some things that concern me a little about the "can" motors. Where are they made? What is the longevity? How will they perform after sitting stored away for a few years? The original open frame Gilbert motor after sitting many years can be serviced with a simple cleaning and lubrication.. worst case is usually a set of springs and brushes all readily available.

    I have an early Lionel/Flyer GP that has had it's can motor fail already and the worst part about it is that it was an early Lionel venture with a specific can that as it turns out is hard to find.(and yes I bought two of them when I found the right one)

    Now I do think that the prospects of a half speed motor producing more smoke and having more pulling power is attractive and in the case of the above mentioned Baldwin most likely this is a vast improvement over the stock motor. I'm also thinking about the challenges of keeping my fleet running well once I have my layout complete. This weighs in favor of the can and Dallee combo.

    Lover of all things Gilbert, truly a man ahead of his time.

    • Member since
      July, 2010
    • From: Arizona
    • 181 posts
    Posted by azflyer on Saturday, February 18, 2012 5:44 PM

     

    That was an interesting question posted by Gray Cat. "What is the longevity of can motors? How will they perform after sitting stored away for a few years"?

    I myself, run all my trains on my layout every week. I switch between trains from my layout to my wall display every couple months. I myself like the 1/2 speed can motors because they go a lot slower while not having hick-ups. This works well for my age, when my eye site and reflexes are not as good as some of the younger model train operators. I am more of a operator than a collector (80%-20%) 

    AZ-Flyer

     

     

    “Tell me and I’ll forget;Embarrassed show me and I may remember;Smile involve me and I’ll understand.”Big Smile

     

    AZ-Flyer@American Flyer Cabinet-top Layout (5'x16'): http://az-flyer.blogspot.com/  

    • Member since
      August, 2017
    • 1 posts
    Posted by afdcc on Thursday, August 31, 2017 1:03 PM

    ive done a conversion of the can motor as well as made it dcc and it works well

    im wanting to make my own convetion assembly .

    that being said does anyone know the pitch of the worm on the american flyer motor

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