Lionel 6466W Tender Whistle Problem

[stangboy68]

 Hi everyone. First i would like to thank you for reading my post and answering my question.  I have a lionel 6466W tender and it works a little too well.  It runs really strong, so strong in fact it doesn't shut off.  I am very mechanical but before I start tearing it apart I wanted to find out what might be the problem.  I wonder if its actuated by an electromagnetic means or what.  Any ideas on a strait forward solution? Thanks!

[lionelsoni]

This is not an uncommon problem.  There is a special relay inside that responds only to the DC voltage that the transformer's whistle controller superimposes on the usual AC voltage.  Its pole piece can get magnetized a little, causing the relay armature to stick to it after it operates.  A very easy fix is to put a little piece of masking tape between the pole piece and the armature, to create the tiniest gap between them.

[challenger3980]

See there Stangboy,

I told you over in Classic Trains to come here, and that Bob would know the answer. He is our own resident Expert on all things electrical. He has solved more problems here than I care to think about.

Hey Bob, just a thought,

Sherriff Joe / Bob Nelson 2012!!!!

Two of the Greastest Problem solvers that I can think of, probably do this country more Good than it would be ready for.

Doug

[stangboy68]

Yeah Doug you were right.  He is a quick responder too. 

Bob,  thank you for your prompt and informative response.  My other question would have to be where do I find the pole peice and armature?  Do I have to do any further dissasemble or is simply removing the initial plastic body enough?  I wish there was an online schematic of the tender so I could see what parts are where.  Any help you can give exactly where to put the masking tape would be most appreciative.  Thanks!

[bfskinner]

You can see the whistle relay easily with the tender's shell removed. In the link below it is part number WSR-1. The "armature" is the thin piece at the lower left of the picture. There are two electrical contacts facing eacj other (one above the other) one above the other. They stick out beyond the body of the relay. Blow the whistle and watch the contacts move. The lower one will be pulled up until it touches the upper one. When you stop pressing the whistle control button, the armature should drop back. Yours is balky.

Sometimes there is a thin layer of grease or oil that has accumulated on the fixed or moving pieces. Try genly cleaning cleaning them with a piece of thin cardstock soaked with a little mineral spirits. Be sure it evaporates before trying thw whistle again. Sometimes that will fix it.

The main body of the relay is an electromagnet. As lionelsoni says it sometimes retains a little residual magnetism. Slip a small piece ot ordinary tape in so that it keeps the armature separated from the bottom of the magnet by just a hair.

You may need to use a pair of tweezers to get the tape into place. Use a tiny (1/4" square) dot of tape. It should end up positioned with the adhesive side UP adhered to the shiny stationary piece in the center of the relay. Don't let the tape interfere with the movement of the armature. Don't get any adhesive from the tape on the moving part. (You don't want to make things worse by adding some adhesive gunk that would tend to make the armature literally stick to the bottom of the magnet.) Don't bend any parts.Don't put the shell back on until the relay is working smoothly and reliably. Sometimes a second layer of tape is necessary, but not usually.

If all else fails, you may have to consider buying a new relay of the same electricro-mechanical type, or substituting an electronic version.

You may clean the electrical contacts very gently. This is part of regular maintenance and is not related to your specific problem. Do not get any tape or adhesive gunk on the electrical contacts themselves.

Check out this link.

http://pictures.olsenstoy.com/cd/whi-tend/loc-ten9.pdf

Let us know whether it works. Good luck.

[Stevereeno]

Hello there

I have a similar problem with a 6466W tender but in my case when I activate a Lionel 1032 transformer whistle controller, the whistle starts to make sounds but the contact on the WSR 1 relay drops out and whistle does not continue. I happen to have a second 1032 transformer and the whistle works fine with this transformer.

So the problem is with the transformer. I have cleaned all the contacts and resoldered the wires but the problem still exists. The Reverse and Speed Controls work just fine.

 

Anyone's thoughts what might be wrong with the transformer control for the whistle?

Thanks

Stevereeno

[JTrains]

Stevereeno

So the problem is with the transformer. I have cleaned all the contacts and resoldered the wires but the problem still exists. The Reverse and Speed Controls work just fine.

Anyone's thoughts what might be wrong with the transformer control for the whistle?

Sounds like the rectifier disk that creates the DC voltage necessary for the whistle is marginal / unreliable, which is quite common in older transformers. These are often replaced in transformer rebuilds with high amperage diodes which offer a much better method of DC current generation - although replacement disks are also available.  Depending upon your skill and comfort level, you could do either (a quick Google & eBay search will get you information, videos, and the necessary parts) - or take it to a repair shop and they can do it for you.

Before doing so, you might want to test-n-compare your transformers with a voltmeter to see if their outputs vary significantly when the whistle control is activated.  If the "good" transformer produces more voltage than the "bad" one, you've likely confirmed the culprit.

[lionelsoni]

It might be the copper-oxide rectifier; but it could also have something to do with the 1.5-ohm resistor that the whistle switch connects in parallel with it in the last stage of its travel.  That resistor is actually just a long piece of nichrome wire.  Make sure it hasn't been replaced by a copper wire and that it has the right resistance.  If the resistance is too low, there may not be enough of a DC component in the waveform to hold up the relay, even though the rectifier is working fine.

It's also possible that your train is just not drawing enough current.  The DC voltage that postwar transformers' whistle controls put out depends on the load current, which includes the current that any whistle motor draws.  Modern locomotives tend to draw less current than postwar ones; so they often have this problem with postwar transformers.  If this is your situation, you may be able to fix the problem by increasing the shunt resistance somewhat above 1.5 ohms.  

The copper-oxide rectifier actually does a slightly better job than a typical modern silicon rectifier.  A Shottky diode has a smaller forward voltage drop and would be a closer substitute if you go that way. 

You should be warned that Lionel for some reason reversed the diode symbol on their postwar transformer schematics.  If you install the diode backwards, that is, in the way shown on the schematic, you will find that your whistle control has become a bell control for modern locomotives.  However, it will make no difference for postwar locomotives that use a whistle relay, which is not sensitive to voltage polarity.

[Stevereeno]

Bob

I checked out the wire that goes to the disk, it is not copper but a silver color, removed the wire cover inspected wire and there appeared no cracks and in good shape.  Any other suggestions regarding wire or where you can buy a new one.

 

As for rectifier disk, I located one on EBAY but can you tell if the old disk is really bad by visually looking at it?

Also how would you suggest removing the clip that holds the disk in place?

 

Thanks

 

Steve

[Lionel Lover Bill]

I have a 6026W tender from the year 1955 (original owner). The whistle wouldn't stop after activated. Through inspection, I found the the gap between the armature and pole was so tight that placing masking tape against the pole was difficult. Also, I didn't want to introduce an adhesive in the event the tape eventually dried, fell off and any residual adhesive may hold the armature closed. So I cut a piece of pure cotton fiber 20# paper sized large enough it was confined within the relay body and support bracket, and wouldn't interfere with the contacts if it shifted slightly. I carefully inserted it and tested my 6026W. It appears the problem was the slightly magnitized relay pole piece. I never would have thought of this. Thanks for the fix recommendation Bob! 

[lionelsoni]

You're welcome, Bill.  When this comes up again (and it will!), I'll try to remember and include a mention of your clever variation on this trick.