Pre War American Flyer Pictures - An Invitation

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Posted by Northwoods Flyer on Saturday, February 22, 2020 11:46 AM

Wide Gauge 

4018 Automobile Car

1928 -1936

The closest that I can come to identifying this version is Schuweiler's variation (C) except that my example has fixed trucks.

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Posted by wrmcclellan on Saturday, February 22, 2020 1:18 PM

Greg and AF crew - Yuz guz just keep knocking 'em outta the park!

Regards, Roy

            

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Posted by Northwoods Flyer on Saturday, February 22, 2020 2:52 PM

Thanks Roy,  Yes

and thanks for reading.  This thread has always been a cooperative effort between readers and posters.

Northwoods Flyer

 

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Posted by JonEddy on Tuesday, February 25, 2020 10:20 PM

Northwoods Flyer,

     I haven't seen much info in this thread about switches. I recently found a reasonable copy of Greenberg's Guide to AF Wide gauge and they don't say much in there about switches either. In the Greenburg guide it does mention that Flyer used Lionel switches for a while but the switch frog design wasn't compatible with the Flyer pickup rollers. Do any of your catalogs show which switches were of Flyer design? The book said they built thier own starting in 1930. Below are a couple of pics of the two that I got from the Flyer stuff my dad gave me back in the 90's. One of them is missing the name plate but both are in pretty good shape, they just need some cleanup.

     Jon

 

 

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Posted by JonEddy on Tuesday, February 25, 2020 10:40 PM

Penny Trains

 

 
Northwoods Flyer
bitten by the collecting bug. Welcome to the infected colony.

 

one of us....one of us....one of us....

 

I have no idea what you two are talking about. Wink

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Posted by Northwoods Flyer on Wednesday, February 26, 2020 8:56 AM

JonEddy

I have no idea what you two are talking about. Wink

 

Oh really. Big Smile

I wonder how long it will take you to start looking for these little darlings.

Feeling any temptations?  Devil

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Posted by JonEddy on Wednesday, February 26, 2020 9:26 AM

Northwoods Flyer
Oh really.  I wonder how long it will take you to start looking for these little darlings.

Well I do have the 3115, what's to say I haven't started looking for the cars. Big Smile Mine doesn't have the cow catchers on it though. I really love the blue colors though.

    Jon

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Posted by Northwoods Flyer on Wednesday, February 26, 2020 11:46 AM

JonEddy

Northwoods Flyer,

     I haven't seen much info in this thread about switches. I recently found a reasonable copy of Greenberg's Guide to AF Wide gauge and they don't say much in there about switches either. In the Greenburg guide it does mention that Flyer used Lionel switches for a while but the switch frog design wasn't compatible with the Flyer pickup rollers. Do any of your catalogs show which switches were of Flyer design? The book said they built thier own starting in 1930. Below are a couple of pics of the two that I got from the Flyer stuff my dad gave me back in the 90's. One of them is missing the name plate but both are in pretty good shape, they just need some cleanup.

     Jon

 

 

Jon, 

I have to plead ignorance when it comes to the development of track and switches.  I haven't seen any articles documenting their evolution either.

I went to my catalogs and checked the 1929 and 1930 track pages. The switches listed do not look like yours.

(1929 Catalog)

I don't have any references for Lionel Standard Gauge switches. It could be that your switches are Lionel made but tagged for American Flyer

The page before the one I posted above has these great track layouts.

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Posted by JonEddy on Wednesday, February 26, 2020 12:20 PM

Northwoods Flyer
I went to my catalogs and checked the 1929 and 1930 track pages. The switches listed do not look like yours. (1929 Catalog)

The manual switches in the catalog you included look like the manual Lionel switches that I have accumulated. That's why I was wondering if these were made after 1930 when Flyer started producing their own per Greeberg's book. These are the only two Flyer switches with name plates I have ever seen.

     Jon

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Posted by JonEddy on Wednesday, February 26, 2020 12:33 PM

I did think maybe they were after 1930 because the name plate is black with gold lettering, isn't that a sign?

    Jon

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Posted by JonEddy on Wednesday, February 26, 2020 2:05 PM

This is the closest I have found online to the switches I have but even they don't have the cover or lights.

 

 

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Posted by Northwoods Flyer on Thursday, February 27, 2020 3:07 PM

The things I have read put the black background tags as being used in 1928 for the first time.  Who knows, this is Flyer afterall.

The switch that you posted is very interesting.  From the use of the fiber board switch I would put as being fairly early.

As I said I am not very knowledgeable about track and switches.  I wonder if there has ever been an article in the TCA Quarterly? If not, perhaps you have the makings of a research project and article.  I have one pair of manual Wide Gauge switches that came with an early Pioneer set, but I am not sure where they are packed at the moment.  My recollection is that they have a black switchstand with the place for a bulb.  

Good luck in your search.  I am sure that someone will jump in here soon.

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Posted by Nationwidelines on Thursday, February 27, 2020 6:51 PM

JonEddy

This is the closest I have found online to the switches I have but even they don't have the cover or lights.

 

 

 

JonEddy,

I think possibly your switch has been modified with a new housing with lights, as it does not quite look correct.  The main reason it does not look correct is that the housing with the lights appears to partially cover the American Flyer name-plate.  

The switch you found a photo of on-line, is a very short-lived switch style to my knowledge, simply based on the fiber-board style switch lever.  The switch would have been lighted, with the lights being contained in one portion of the die-cast housing. 

Unfortunately, the die-cast housings on this style of switch are rarely found intact.  Here is a similar switch in O gauge.  Note there are two die-cast pieces, a cast base and a cast light housing.

 

 The bottom die-cast piece was also used on some free-standing on-off type switches, which I am not certain what they were actually used for.  Possibly remote switches, but I am not certain, as I have only seen this single set of controllers.

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Posted by JonEddy on Thursday, February 27, 2020 11:19 PM

Nationwidelines
I think possibly your switch has been modified with a new housing with lights, as it does not quite look correct.  The main reason it does not look correct is that the housing with the lights appears to partially cover the American Flyer name-plate.  

I was thinking that it may have been modified too, most likely by my gandpa back in the 40's or 50's when my dad was little. Thanks for the added info.

    Jon

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Posted by Northwoods Flyer on Saturday, February 29, 2020 12:15 PM

Wide Gauge

# 4022 Machinery Car

1928 - 1933 

Earlier in the thread I posted what I thought was the 4023 Log Car. (1932 - 1934) It is close to the version(Variation B) that has two 4022 plates and carries the block of wood. The 6 Million tags make it questionable as to being correct.

 

This is the #4022 Machinery Car that has the correct number tags on it.  I believe this to be the #4022 that Schuweiler identifies as version (A).  The only thing that isn't quite right is that my example has only one black stanchion with a brakewheel.  Schuweiler's has two.  My example is packed away at the moment so I can't examine it to see if it may have lost the second brakewheel.

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Posted by JonEddy on Saturday, February 29, 2020 2:22 PM

I went to a train swap meet here at the Museum of Transportation here in St Louis this morning and found this beauty! From what I have seen in the Greenberg gude it is a variation of the 213 bridge but it doesn't look like it ever had a watchman's tower attached to it. it measures 27-1/2 inches by 9 inches tall by 6-1/2 inches tall. It's better than any of the bridges I've seen on eBay and less than half the price. Big Smile I hate to brag but I have an awesome wife who let me get it. Wink Surpisingly I found a bag of AF O gauge "junk" marked for 5 bucks, the guy threw it in the deal for the #104 Kenilworth station pictured below. It had 3 trucks and wheels for passenger\stock cars a ladder, a caboose railing, and a top to maybe a derrick car? see pics below. I think there was another Kenilworth Station and a station 96 there as well. 

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Posted by Nationwidelines on Saturday, February 29, 2020 4:14 PM

Northwoods Flyer

Wide Gauge

# 4022 Machinery Car

1928 - 1933 

Earlier in the thread I posted the 4023 Log Car. It is the version that has two 4022 plates and carries the block of wood.

This is the #4022 Machinery Car that has the correct number tags on it.  I believe this to be the #4022 that Schuweiler identifies as version (A).  The only thing that isn't quite right is that my example has only one black stanchion with a brakewheel.  Schuweiler's has two.  My example is packed away at the moment so I can't examine it to see if it may have lost the second brakewheel.

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Northwoods Flyer

 

I am not sure that your version with the Machinery Car number plates would be correct with a block of wood on it.  Machinery cars typically do not have a load on them.  

There is a true 4023 log car, which has 2 American Flyer plates and 4023 rubber stamped on the bottom.  

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Posted by Nationwidelines on Saturday, February 29, 2020 4:50 PM

Here is a correct 4023 Log Car

Note that correct log cars have pins to hold the log load in place.

The Greenberg guide does list and show a version of the log car that has four 4022 plates on it, but that and the one pictured above are the only versions of the standard gauge log car listed in Greenbergs.

NWL

 

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Posted by Northwoods Flyer on Wednesday, March 4, 2020 12:13 PM

JonEddy

I went to a train swap meet here at the Museum of Transportation here in St Louis this morning and found this beauty! From what I have seen in the Greenberg gude it is a variation of the 213 bridge but it doesn't look like it ever had a watchman's tower attached to it. it measures 27-1/2 inches by 9 inches tall by 6-1/2 inches tall.    Jon 

Nice finds Jon.

I have several of the Wide Gauge bridges in my collection, including three of the 27-1/2 inch bridges and one of the longer bridges.  Two of them have brass tags. None of them match the descriptions of the bridges in the Greenberg guide.  None of them have any evidence of ever having the watchman's house mounted on the top.  I have always found that portion of the Greenberg guide inadequate and confusing.  All of the short bridges are in storage at the moment.  The long bridge is available and I will post some photos later.

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Posted by Nationwidelines on Wednesday, March 4, 2020 1:31 PM

JonEddy

I went to a train swap meet here at the Museum of Transportation here in St Louis this morning and found this beauty! From what I have seen in the Greenberg gude it is a variation of the 213 bridge but it doesn't look like it ever had a watchman's tower attached to it. it measures 27-1/2 inches by 9 inches tall by 6-1/2 inches tall. It's better than any of the bridges I've seen on eBay and less than half the price. Big Smile I hate to brag but I have an awesome wife who let me get it. Wink Surpisingly I found a bag of AF O gauge "junk" marked for 5 bucks, the guy threw it in the deal for the #104 Kenilworth station pictured below. It had 3 trucks and wheels for passenger\stock cars a ladder, a caboose railing, and a top to maybe a derrick car? see pics below. I think there was another Kenilworth Station and a station 96 there as well. 

    Jon

I would suspect that it is a 211 Bridge, listed on page 88 of Greenbergs, which is described as 28 inches long, as the 213 Bridge is slightly different and does not have the black ties or American Flyer tags on it.

 

NWL

 

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Posted by Northwoods Flyer on Wednesday, March 4, 2020 2:16 PM

Wide Gauge

4017 Sand Car (Variation K)

Here is a variation of the very common 4017 sand car.

And here is a photo of a portion of page 70 of the Greenberg Guide by Schuweiler that describes this car.

And some additional photos of my 4017(K)

Back in 1989 when the Guide was copywrited there were No Reported Sales of this car. I personally know of one sale since then. Wink

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Posted by Northwoods Flyer on Wednesday, March 4, 2020 3:10 PM

Jon.

I knew that I recognized the tag used on your bridge:

JonEddy

 

  

It was also used on the 6-1/2 inch 1146 Log car from 1928-1929

It was also used on the 9-1/2 inch 3006 American Flyer RR Log Car 1926-1927.  I can't find a photo of my car, but it is shown on page 182 of Greenberg's Guide to American Flyer Prewar O Gauge.

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Posted by JonEddy on Wednesday, March 4, 2020 11:24 PM

Nationwidelines
I would suspect that it is a 211 Bridge, listed on page 88 of Greenbergs, which is described as 28 inches long, as the 213 Bridge is slightly different and does not have the black ties or American Flyer tags on it.   NWL

Thanks, I believe your right, I have seen a few of each on eBay since I posted these pics. It would help if the Greenberg book had actual pictures of the bridges, not to mention there isn't even a drawing of the 211.

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Posted by JonEddy on Wednesday, March 4, 2020 11:31 PM

Northwoods Flyer
Nice finds Jon.

Thanks, I wasn't sure if I'd find any Flyer prewar stuff at the swap meet since I didn't see much prewar stuff at  the Great American train show last month. I sure didn't expect to find  a bridge. Smile

     Jon

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Posted by Nationwidelines on Friday, March 6, 2020 9:51 AM

JonEddy

 

 
Nationwidelines
I would suspect that it is a 211 Bridge, listed on page 88 of Greenbergs, which is described as 28 inches long, as the 213 Bridge is slightly different and does not have the black ties or American Flyer tags on it.   NWL

 

Thanks, I believe your right, I have seen a few of each on eBay since I posted these pics. It would help if the Greenberg book had actual pictures of the bridges, not to mention there isn't even a drawing of the 211.

 

  Jon

 

 

You think the guide is bad for Bridges, you should try and figure out American Flyer Tunnels, using the guide.  I have 20+ different Flyer prewar tunnels and the guide describes only a few of the standard gauge tunnels. 

NWL

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Posted by Zepherfan on Friday, March 6, 2020 6:50 PM

I picked up an interesting car today. It is a red 8 1/2" observation with type X trucks and VIIc couplers. It has a small brass framed window between the brass door and the strip of 6 brass framed windows on the fireman's side, but is missing that window on the opposite side. So that would make this car half a 3177c for having the window, and half a 3177b for not having it, if I am interpreting Schuweiler's guide correctly.

i can't post pictures here using my phone, but I will foreword them to Northwoods and hopefully he can post them.

Ken

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Posted by Northwoods Flyer on Monday, March 9, 2020 11:27 AM

Ken's post just showed up today, and here are his photos of the car he found.

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Posted by Northwoods Flyer on Friday, March 13, 2020 5:07 PM

Wide Gauge

4696  Brass Piper Engine and Tender

1931 - 1935

After posting the previous entries of Wide Gauge freight cars I thought it was time to post motive power that might have pulled them.

The 4696 is the number used for the combination of the 4695 locomotive

and the 4693 Vanderbilt tender.

I think this is one of the most beautiful combinations that Flyer put together.

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Posted by fifedog on Saturday, March 14, 2020 7:35 AM

Left HugFifedog love PiperRight Hug

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Posted by Penny Trains on Saturday, March 14, 2020 7:03 PM

I've always wondered if Ives had put the same level of detail on the original model as Flyer ended up doing later on if it wouldn't have helped Ives fortunes a bit.  Don't get me wrong, I love the Ives versions, especially the Circus Train:

http://www.ivestrains.org/

Trains, trains, wonderful trains.  The more you get, the more you toot!  Big Smile

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