Pre War American Flyer Pictures - An Invitation

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Posted by Nationwidelines on Thursday, December 13, 2018 6:52 AM

I guess this car just shows that some items don't stand the test of time.  At 111 years old, the litho is peeling/flaking off the body of the car, which renders it to the parts bin.

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Posted by Northwoods Flyer on Friday, December 14, 2018 1:05 PM

Sherman (NationWideLines),

I think most of us would like to take a ride (or several) on the Wayback Machine.  Just imagine all of the goodies we could find, and the questions we could find answers to. Wink  Nice find on the Brigadier set.

Accessories

#2018  Block Signal Lights

When NWL and I were at York back in October he found one of these signals and pointed it out to me.  It was missing its light hoods and the paint was in very rough condition.  I debated about buying it for a while, because I didn't have one in the collection and they don't come up very often.  In the end I decided to pass on it.  Instead I came across a repainted one recently and in one of the rare examples of adding a repaint to the collection, I snapped it up.

The Greenberg guide lists it as being cataloged in 1925 - 1926 but does not have a picture or an illustration of it.

These are from the 1925 catalog page of accessories.

Most of the time when I have seen examples of the #2018 they are missing the light hoods, or they have been replaced with Lionel switch light covers.  This one has two original Flyer hoods.

And with the bulbs lighted.

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Posted by Northwoods Flyer on Friday, December 28, 2018 9:48 AM

3007 Sand Car

I know that this car has been posted before on the thread.  I recently got my first one to add to the collection and thought I would share it.

The Greenberg guide lists this as version (A) Union Pacific.  The #3007 was cataloged from 1925 -1927, but this version only appeared in 1925 - 1926.

There are three other variations of this car listed.  The hunt goes on.  Wink

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Posted by mersenne6 on Friday, December 28, 2018 7:21 PM
American Flyer’s use of leftover parts inventory
 
The set below looks very much like Flyer’s set M0 from 1914.  However, in 1914 Flyer introduced a new litho treatment for the passenger car body style with a car number of 102 and a new frame.  Greenberg has designated the new frame Type III. The frame on the car in the picture is a Type III but the car body is the older Chicago litho style which does not match the 102 litho nor the window treatment of that car.
 

 

I purchased this set about 9 years ago, added it to my collection and didn’t think much more about it. Sometime later as I was looking at the set it occurred to me the Chicago car didn’t look quite right.  I pulled out my copy of the Greenberg Guide to pre-war American Flyer and was somewhat surprised to find this car was not listed and, based on the guide, shouldn’t even exist. 
 
   With this in mind I took a closer look at my car and found small skid mark indentations on the underside of the frame which radiated out from each of the body tabs which were bent to hold body and frame together.  The set is/was like new so I thought it odd someone would have taken a perfectly new Chicago car and installed it on a 1914 frame but then people do make changes even to brand new items all the time so perhaps someone had done just this back when the set was new.
 
  A few years back a west coast seller put a set exactly like mine up for bid on e-bay.  He split the train set into two separate auctions – engine/tender and the car.  I tried to win both but was outbid on the engine/tender combination.  When the car arrived the first thing I did was turn it over to check its assembly.  Just like the others it had assembly skid marks.

 

The fact that I had purchased my set in the east and the car above came from the west coast got me to wondering about the how and why of this car.  One car – a home modification, two cars on almost opposite sides of the country…well, maybe there was more than one person who didn’t like the 1914 102 car and decided to do something about it.  On the other hand maybe it was something else.  About a year after purchasing the above car I found another fairly beat up example at a local train meet.  A check of the underside showed the same build skid marks.  Time passed, I found other examples both at meets and in other collections. My current count for the number of cars of this type is 11.
 
  As attested to by trains in numerous collections American Flyer was well known for using old parts inventory on trains of later manufacture. A single example of this car could easily be attributed to a home modification but when the count reaches 11 and the cars are present in collections in a number of different states the odds of home modification dwindle to almost zero. This, in turn, would argue either Flyer or one of their customers set up a manual assembly line and turned out as many cars as there were leftover bodies.  At this late date, the only way to be absolutely certain that this happened would be to find a boxed M0 set with the contents shown above.

 

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Posted by Nationwidelines on Saturday, December 29, 2018 6:00 PM

mersenne6
American Flyer’s use of leftover parts inventory
 
The set below looks very much like Flyer’s set M0 from 1914.  However, in 1914 Flyer introduced a new litho treatment for the passenger car body style with a car number of 102 and a new frame.  Greenberg has designated the new frame Type III. The frame on the car in the picture is a Type III but the car body is the older Chicago litho style which does not match the 102 litho nor the window treatment of that car.
 

 

I purchased this set about 9 years ago, added it to my collection and didn’t think much more about it. Sometime later as I was looking at the set it occurred to me the Chicago car didn’t look quite right.  I pulled out my copy of the Greenberg Guide to pre-war American Flyer and was somewhat surprised to find this car was not listed and, based on the guide, shouldn’t even exist. 
 
   With this in mind I took a closer look at my car and found small skid mark indentations on the underside of the frame which radiated out from each of the body tabs which were bent to hold body and frame together.  The set is/was like new so I thought it odd someone would have taken a perfectly new Chicago car and installed it on a 1914 frame but then people do make changes even to brand new items all the time so perhaps someone had done just this back when the set was new.
 
  A few years back a west coast seller put a set exactly like mine up for bid on e-bay.  He split the train set into two separate auctions – engine/tender and the car.  I tried to win both but was outbid on the engine/tender combination.  When the car arrived the first thing I did was turn it over to check its assembly.  Just like the others it had assembly skid marks.

 

The fact that I had purchased my set in the east and the car above came from the west coast got me to wondering about the how and why of this car.  One car – a home modification, two cars on almost opposite sides of the country…well, maybe there was more than one person who didn’t like the 1914 102 car and decided to do something about it.  On the other hand maybe it was something else.  About a year after purchasing the above car I found another fairly beat up example at a local train meet.  A check of the underside showed the same build skid marks.  Time passed, I found other examples both at meets and in other collections. My current count for the number of cars of this type is 11.
 
  As attested to by trains in numerous collections American Flyer was well known for using old parts inventory on trains of later manufacture. A single example of this car could easily be attributed to a home modification but when the count reaches 11 and the cars are present in collections in a number of different states the odds of home modification dwindle to almost zero. This, in turn, would argue either Flyer or one of their customers set up a manual assembly line and turned out as many cars as there were leftover bodies.  At this late date, the only way to be absolutely certain that this happened would be to find a boxed M0 set with the contents shown above.

 

 

Mersenne6,

Thanks for posting this.  I don't think there is much of a question that Flyer made the Chicago cars with the frame as you have shown.  I think it is just due to the fact that they ran out of frames before they ran out of bodies.  I have one of the early wooden tank cars, which is on the same frame, even though the Greenberg's guide shows the same tank on the similar style frame on the early 4 window Chicago cars.

To me the most interesting item in your set is the 328 tender with the orange/red frame.  I would have suspected that would be an earlier era tender than 1914.  I know the early Chicago cars and 328 tenders with odd color frames are typically early production and after a certain point they become black painted frames.  However, I know the orange/red framed 328 tender is a later tender due to it having a butterfly style coupler (if I remember correctly).

 

NWL

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Posted by mersenne6 on Saturday, December 29, 2018 7:13 PM

NWL

   Hmmmm....now things get really interesting.  I went upstairs and checked the set and the spare car.  The tender on my set does indeed have a butterfly coupler.  Both cars match with respect to frame, body and coupler.  The car couplers are Type 4a. which, according to Greenberg is consistent with 1914.

  Even though I didn't win the engine/tender combination to go with the second car I did keep a screen shot of them.  It turns out I was so focused on the cars that I didn't really look at the engine and tender.  A check of the screen shot indicates the engine matches mine however the tender is a #328 with the shorter black frame ... and the coupler on the rear of the tender looks like a Type V.  It is definitely not a IVb with the extra bend at the bottom of the hook. If Greenberg is correct, the Type V dates from 1918.  I guess I really don't know what to make of the tender differences. What I do know is I wish I had put in a higher bid for the engine and tender...

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Posted by Northwoods Flyer on Friday, January 18, 2019 8:30 AM

Accessories

#2010 Double Arc Light

Do you have one particular type of engine or car or accessory that you like more than others?  Over the years I have come to realize that I have a fondness for streetlights.  I have managed to gather quite a few of them from a variety of manufacturers. Two that have eluded me over the years are the #2009 and the #2010.  At the Fall 2018 York I finally found a #2010 Double Arc Light within the first 10 minutes of browsing at the Wyndham.

I have always been fascinated by the fancy filigree work on the top section.

 

Greenberg dates it as being available Circa 1920 - 1926

along with its single lamp sibling the #2009.

It is a fairly tall lamp but can be used with either Wide or Narrow gauge as this photo illustrates.

I am still looking for a #2009, but as usually happens, in short order I found a second #2010 to keep the first one company.  That satisfied my other goal of having at least a pair of the examples of streetlights that I have.

The hunt continues.

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Posted by LL675 on Saturday, January 19, 2019 12:06 AM

truly a work of art

Dave

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Posted by Nationwidelines on Saturday, January 19, 2019 4:22 PM

Accessories.....

Here is a more unusual accessory, the 209 Telegraph Pole.

 

Ok, nothing unusual about the ones above, but how were they packaged?

 

The box is stamped 1/2 Dozen in the upper left corner (or Lower Right, when viewed upside down).  

To me, the most interesting observation is that the label for the 209 Telegraph Poles, which is largely missing, was pasted over the label for a Danger Signal.  I have never observed a box of 6 Danger Signals, but I have seen at least 2 other boxed sets of 6 Telegraph Poles, one an early set like the ones I have and the other a late set, which were the stamped sheetmetal telegraph poles.

NWL

 

 

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Posted by wrmcclellan on Saturday, January 19, 2019 10:08 PM

One would hope there is some way to capture this entire thread and do something like publish it!

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Posted by LL675 on Saturday, January 19, 2019 10:33 PM
totally agree! Paging Professor Carp!!

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Posted by Northwoods Flyer on Tuesday, January 22, 2019 8:20 PM
Happy Anniversary
 

January 22, 2008  -  January 22, 2019

 

Celebrating

11

 years

of

Pre War American Flyer Pictures

 

Eleven years! Where has the time gone? How did it get to be the time for me to wish all of us another Happy Annniversary?  It seems appropriate that as I sit writing this it is a cold and snowy night here in Wisconsin just as it was 11 years ago when I wrote the first entry in this thread.  The snow is falling and it feels good to be safe and warm sitting in my train room listening to the clatter of tin wheels on tinplate track. 

I am thankful for the opportunity to partcipate in this wonderful hobby and to share it with a knowledgeable and friendly group of people.  One of the highlights of this past year was the opportunity to go to York in October.  I met several of the folks who contribute here regularly.  I travelled with NationWideLines and we talked American Flyer almost non-stop on the drive. Thanks NWL for a great trip.  I finally met mersenne6 who has been an invaluble resource and contributor.  I also met folks who read the thread but haven't taken the plunge and contributed yet.  One of the most interesting experiences was walking through the Halls at York and seeing things I had only read about in books. I wore my TCA generated name tag, but I added my name here, Northwoods Flyer, to it. As I walked the halls and stopped at tables, several times I heard "Northwoods Flyer!  Are you the guy who hosts the thread on the CTT website?"  I smiled a lot, talked a lot, and met numerous new friends.  I guess I am notorious.  I added items to the collection while I was at York. Some of them I have already posted.  I will post more in the coming year.

Once again I want to thank Kalmbach for allowing this thread to run for these 11 years.  What a great ride.  It makes me excited to think about what we will discover this year.  And thanks to all of you who contribute. I look forward to checking on this thread every morning to see what new photos and interesting bits of information have been posted or what question needs to be researched.

So it is 11 years.  I've been wondering what photos I would could post this year.  I decided on posting the Type XI tender.  While American Flyer didn't use that label for it, it is a designation that the Greenberg Guide uses for this tender. 

And it is part of my favorite engine tender combination - The Hiawatha

The Type XI tender is sleek and fits well with streamlined engines.

And if you stand them on end next to each other and squint they look like the #11.  Wink

Join me in the new year of gathering and posting information, and asking questions.

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Posted by Nationwidelines on Friday, January 25, 2019 7:28 PM

Northwoods,

I enjoyed having you visit to see the trains and traveling to York with you.  The forum is a great source of information and I too have enjoyed meeting a number of different people through it.  

Although I am sure I could post a great picture of an unusual Flyer item, I would rather post this photo of the layout. 

In November, I traveled to the Los Angeles area and saw a superb Standard Gauge layout that had lots of trees, figures, and vehicles on it.  Then in late November, some friends visited and commented that my layout needed some trees.  So I have been purchasing trees in recent weeks.  

 

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Posted by mersenne6 on Saturday, January 26, 2019 6:37 PM

Happy 11th Northwoods - you've done a great job over the years.  So 11 .....Hmmmm

Well, Here's Set #5 - The Viking

 

 

....and here's Set #6

 

 

   Which do a good job of summing to 11.Smile

 

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Posted by mersenne6 on Saturday, January 26, 2019 6:49 PM

...and here's my first contribution to the thread for 2019.

American Flyer Uncataloged Set ca. 1933-37

  A good 15 or so years back I saw the sad remains of an American Flyer set on a table at one of the local train meets.  It consisted of 3 un-numbered passenger cars, a baggage, a coach, and an observation in litho green with orange painted roofs and Type VIIIa trucks.  The set was headed by a #614 sheet metal engine and 4 wheel tender.

  A couple of years after that I found the three cars, complete with cardboard shipping sleeves for sale at another meet. I purchased the cars and asked about the engine and tender. Much to my dismay I learned that the owner of the set had sold the engine/tender separately at a different meet that same year.  

  A few years after that and Northwoods Flyer began this thread and way back on page 13 of the current way the pages are counted, he and I had a discussion about these cars because he had turned up a set as well.  This past December I finally found a #614 locomotive and tender in the same condition as the cars.  I still don't know a thing about the set, the set number, or, if it was a special for a large customer, who that customer might have been but for the record below is a picture of the set

 

 

Below are the three cars with cardboard storage sleeves.  I had assumed the sleeves designated the car numbers but after discussion with NWL (see below) I think they just happen to be sleeves someone attached at a later time.  

 

  The reason for the large year range with respect to guessing year of manufacture is that the 614 showed up in 1933 and the car trucks are estimated  to have been made between 1933 and 1938.

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Posted by Nationwidelines on Sunday, January 27, 2019 10:17 AM

Mersenne6,

Those car sleeves are very interesting.  I have never seen sleeves for that type of car.  I have only seen sleeves on the champion freights and tin streamliners.  However, only one of your sleeve numbers match a champion car, which is the 1228 Texaco tanker.  

My only question would be, "do the cars fit in the sleeves ok?" as those are tall cars.  

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Posted by mersenne6 on Sunday, January 27, 2019 1:07 PM

 Yes, they fit just fine - no binding or rubbing to speak of.

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Posted by Northwoods Flyer on Sunday, January 27, 2019 4:33 PM

I had to go back to page 13 and read the information that was posted there.  I thought I would re-post it here to keep the information together.

Uncataloged Set

American Flyer is well known for assembling sets, for stores and other outlets, that did not appear in their catalog.  This has created some interesting variations and unusual sets that show up. I have acquired most of the items in my collection one or two pieces at a time.  Recently I came across a full set that I recognized from Greenberg's book.  In the book it is listed in the passenger car section.  Its the set on the right.

 
My set contains a #614 steamer.  Mersenne6 describes this engine on page 7 (current page numbering) of this thread.  It has the typical problem of deteriorating wheels and has a tender labeled "Champion", althought it is difficult to see it in the photo.
 
 
It also comes with a baggage.  Note that the door is a different color than the one shown in Greenberg, the door also has no lithography as compared to similar baggage cars, and the car has the Great Northern logo.
 
 
 
You have to wonder if there was any problem with liscensing agreements - somehow I doubt it.
 
 
There are two identical passenger cars
 
 
And an observation car.
 
 
None of the cars have numbers on them identifying them, and all are without journals, just like the photos in the Greenberg book.
 
One of the things that I enjoy so much about this forum is the ability to exchange information. I contacted Mersenne6 to see if he could help me with any additional identification or information.  I was curious to see if I could find out who sold these sets.  He managed to come up with some additional facts:
 
" The cars you are asking about are numbered #1226, 1227, and 1228.  As noted they are unmarked but they came in cardboard sleeves with the number rubber stamped on the sleeve.  The engine is our old friend #614 of the crumbled wheels fame. It is identical to the one I photographed and posted in response to the earlier question concerning that engine's wheels.(edit - page 7  current numbering)  I've never seen the set with a box so I don't know who marketed it but I have seen two sets with the cars, engine, and tender in the cardboard sleeves.  This would put the set in the 1935-37 time frame because of the method of packing the cars."
 
He also provided a picture of a car and its sleeve.
 
Many Thanks Mersenne6 for the additional information. Bow
 
So it is still possible to find information about items that hasn't been published in books.  The hunt for information and the history of items is something that keeps me interested in this hobby.  I still don't know who marketed the set. The hunt continues.  If you have any information about this set I'd enjoy hearing it.
 
 
 
01/27/2019 update 
 
I have been putting together a set of these orange and green cars that have the square cornered roofs.  So they must have been marketed that way too. (Pictures to come when I can find where I have them stored  Embarrassed )
 
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Posted by Nationwidelines on Sunday, January 27, 2019 9:50 PM

Mersenne6,

I hate to rain on your parade, but I suspect what you have are sleeves from Champion freight cars mated with your cars.  I say this because I have a 1228 sleeve with a Champion freight set and I can get one of those cars to slide into it.  There are several other sleeves in the setbox I have, with 1200 numbers on them, I just cannot make out the other numbers beyond the first 2 numbers.

I would find it very surprising if Flyer used the same number on two different cars during the same era.  

Since you did not acquire your cars as a complete set or with a setbox, I suspect that a previous collector or seller mated the sleeves with those cars.  

Although the Greenberg's guide does not list numbers in the 1226 to 1230 range, other than the 1228, which is identified as the Texaco lithographed tank car, I suspect that those numbers were used with 8-wheel champion freight cars.  

I would suspect that those cars date to around 1933.  I checked the 1932-1934 price lists and they do not specifically break out a set like that.  They list differing passenger cars, but give few details, other than length.

 

NWL  

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Posted by Nationwidelines on Sunday, January 27, 2019 10:10 PM

Now for something different.  Here are some photos of a flat car that I recently acquired.  It is a bit unusual, due to it having 2 brake wheels and 2 cross-members on each side.  I am guessing the car dates to c. 1933-34, as it still has the steps that are not part of the frame. Another oddity about the car is that the cross-members are punched for the plates, but have decals instead of plates.  I have not observed any of the 9.5 inch flat cars with all of these features.  

I am not sure if this would be a 3206 Machinery Car or 3216 Log Car, as the bottom of the car is only marked with the Insp. 2 lettering and no car number.  

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Posted by mersenne6 on Monday, January 28, 2019 7:18 AM

NWL no need to apologize for rain.  You make a good point and while Flyer did give the number 3198 to two different engines it does not seem likely that they would have done this sort of thing on a regular basis - it would have been a nightmare with respect to bookkeeping and inventory control. Under these circumstances a later collector/dealer repackaging as opposed to original packing makes more sense.

  I too have a boxed champion freight set headed by a tinplate Hiawatha which has all of the cars and the engine in cardboard sleeves.  If I remember correctly all of the sleeve numbers are legible.  I'll pull it out and let you know what I find. It will be interesting is to see if I get a match for any of the other numbers of the cardboard sleeves listed above.

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Posted by mersenne6 on Monday, January 28, 2019 5:20 PM

American Flyer Set #842

  As a follow up to the discussion concerning car and sleeve numbers I checked this set for the way the contents were packaged and labeled.

Boxed Set #842

 

 

... and the set contents

A check of each of the cars and their associated packing sleeves indicates the following:

Gondola - #1113

 

The sleeve is marked "1113" it is faint and may not show up well in the image but it is legible.  The car has the number "311131" which amounts to 1113 buffered by a 3 and a 1 on either end.

 

Hopper Car #1126

 

 

  The sleeve is marked "1126" and the hopper is numbered "311267".  The numbering is like the gondola with the car number buffered with a number before and after the actual car number.

 

Tank Car #1128

 

 

...and here's where it gets interesting.  The sleeve has "1128" and the car is obviously numbered "1228".  It's long been known that American Flyer had different body numbers for 4 wheel and 8 wheel versions of the same car litho treatment.  It is also well known that Flyer didn't make a hard and fast rule concerning this kind of numbering and it is very easy to find bodies with an 8 wheel number on a 4 wheel frame and conversely.  The tank car is just another instance of this practice. 

 

Caboose #1127

 

 

In this case the storage sleeve and the car have the same number - "1127"

 

  So, in this set we have two cars with the 4 wheel ID buffered with a prefix and a suffix number, a car with an 8 wheel number body on a 4 wheel frame, and a car with a 4 wheel number with no prefix or suffix number.

  As NWL noted above with respect to the sleeve number 1228 - it is a match for the 8 wheel version of the Sinclair tank car.  This would suggest that the sleeves 1226 and 1227 correspond to the 8 wheel version of the hopper car and the caboose.

  As for the engine and tender - the tender sleeve is missing but the sleeve for the engine is numbered 730.  This engine is the sheet metal Hiawatha with a mechanical whistle and is listed in the Greenberg guide.  

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Posted by Northwoods Flyer on Wednesday, January 30, 2019 10:45 PM

As I mentioned a few posts back I have been putting together a set of the green litho orange roofed passenger cars.  I have the cars with the rounded roofs with ventilator bumps.  The set I am working on has the squared roofs with ventilator bumps.  

I am still looking for the baggage car for the square cornered roof version.  I once saw this set with red roofs and passed on it because I thought the roofs were repainted.  It turns our that it is a legitimated variation.  Does anyone have a photo of those cars?

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Posted by wrmcclellan on Thursday, January 31, 2019 9:01 AM

Pics, discussion, and the beautiful condition of your collections - outstanding!

Regards, Roy

            

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Posted by Northwoods Flyer on Thursday, January 31, 2019 1:26 PM

Thanks Roy.  For me the hunt for the right piece, in an acceptable condition (operator quality) is one of the most enjoyable aspects of the hobby.  And the opportunity to discuss and compare the items that are posted and share information and experiences is another part of this hobby that I enjoy.

It was nice to meet you and chat at York in October.  Maybe the next time we can go out for one of those adult beverages you keep talking about.  Wink

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Posted by Nationwidelines on Friday, February 01, 2019 8:22 PM

Here are some more 1107 variations.  

I should note that the above two photos are different sides of the same car.  One side is more grayish and the other more purplish.

The photo below is the same litho in blue.

All of the above cars are c. 1918, as the door windows are not punched out on the 1107 cars in 1918 only, until around the mid 1930s, when again the door windows are not punched out on some cars.

NWL

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Posted by mersenne6 on Saturday, February 02, 2019 8:20 PM
  Some Thoughts On American Flyer 1107/1108 Passenger Car Lithography
 
  Well, since you brought up the subject of the 1107/1108 cars NWL, I’ll go ahead and add to the discussion.
 
Type III Frame B&O Cars

Consider the following three cars:
 
B&O Gray
 
  
 
B&O Light Blue
 
 
B&O Medium Blue
 
 
 
If you examine the lithography of these three cars there are several things that catch the eye.  Not only do these cars appear to have many more passes through the lithography presses than the later cars but it appears that the technology/practice/skill evolved over time.
 
The Gray B&O Car
 
  There are several things about this car that stand out.

1.       The name on the letter board, “Baltimore & Ohio” and the car number “1107” have a block of yellow/brown around them and all of the yellow lines defining doors and window frames are have a highlight shadow of yellow/brown. 

2.       The thickness of the yellow/brown highlights around each of the lines is not uniform nor are the yellow/brown boxes surrounding the car numbers.

 

  Based on what I managed to find on the web with respect to the process of lithography, issues surrounding multiple passes for lithographic printing, and what I could see with a 10X magnifying loupe, it appeared the first pass was the overall gray of the car.  However, after a side discussion with NationWideLines about the order of color printing I think it is safe to say that the first layer of color is white.
 
  NationWideLines closely examined several of his 1107 cars where scratches to the litho had gone down to the bare metal.  In each case the layer of litho paint directly next to the metal was white. Given this then it would appear the second layer of color printed on the litho would have been the primary car color which, in this case, would be gray. 
 
   Litho printing in this order would mean the mask for the primary car color would have had openings in it that defined all of the lines, door outlines, herald lettering, windows, rivets and car numbers. After the gray the next pass appears to be a light yellow “wash” which when printed on gray areas provides shadowing for the lines and windows and turns all of the white litho it covers into a bright yellow.  The overlay of the “wash” is evident around the lines near the logo.
 
   The next litho pass would be either the green or the red.  You can find red litho splashes on the yellow/brown “wash” and you can find green overprinting the yellow/brown and the white of the logo.  There are no places on the car where red and green come in contact with one another so there is no way to tell which one came first.
 
  The green overprinting of the white rivets highlights them as a lighter green. One additional item – when the yellow wash was applied as a frame to the window it was made just thick enough so that when the red was printed inside the yellow framing it overlapped the yellow and the resulting color is a thin maroon border between the yellow and the red.
 
The Light and Medium Blue B&O Cars
 
  An examination of the lithography for the light and medium blue B&O cars shows the same general pattern with respect to litho construction.  However, there are some improvements.  There is an increase in overall sharpness of the edges of the lines, letters, and rivets on the light and medium blue cars. The 10x loupe indicates the overprint yellow “wash” for the medium blue car letters has been refined from a simple block to a “wash” that matches the numbers.  On one side the loupe highlights not only the “wash in the shape of the numbers but also the fact that it just slightly missed covering the white litho on the trailing edge of a 0 and a 7.
 
  Based on the above and on the frame types of the three cars I would guess that the time order of manufacture from earliest to latest for these cars would be gray first, light blue second, and medium blue third.  
 
Green American Flyer Car – Type III Frame
 
 
 
My guess is this car was manufactured some time after the gray car and possibly after the medium blue B&O car.  The reason for saying this is the simplification and additional improvment of the litho treatment. 
 
  If the previous conjectures concerning litho construction are accurate then the order of litho passes for this car would be white, light green, yellow wash, red, and a separate pass in dark green for rivets and outer window and door frames.
  The misalignment of the red litho pass is most evident on the car numbers on the right side. I think the letters were white, converted to yellow with the wash and then overprinted with red.  When the red ran into the darker green it resulted in shadowed numbers. It should also be noted that the litho yellow wash has been adjusted so it matches the slope of the leading edge of the “A” in American on the letterboard and the curve of the trailing edge of the “R” in Flyer. The result is white letters with a lighter green background.
 
  The evidence for a separate pass for the rivets is most evident on the rivet count on the left and right side of the window frame of the 4th punched window in from the left.  The count of rivets on the left is 8 and on the right is 7 and the spacing and size of the rivets vary considerably.
 
Type IV Frame B&O Car
 
 
 
By the time we get to the type IV frames it would appear there has been a major refinement in overprinting a “wash”.  Again, assuming what I’ve said above is correct, the print order appears to be white, blue, overprint with a yellow wash, and orange.  An examination of the rivets, the rivet shadows, and the shadow detail for many of the yellow lines highlights the control of the “wash” overprint.  There is just a touch of yellow on small spots on the outer edges of the B&O herald below the windows and over on the left side of the car the third rivet from the bottom for the row of rivets next to the door the mask was missing an opening which meant the white was not exposed. Consequently only the yellow "wash" printed and the result is a small black spot.
  • Member since
    January, 2008
  • From: Wausau Wisconsin
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Posted by Northwoods Flyer on Thursday, February 07, 2019 3:53 PM

Set #4009 from 1940

Northern Pacific Passenger Train 

This is another of my "assembled" sets.  It comes from the Gilbert era of production, and just before toy production was shut down by the government and factories started supporting the war effort.

I purchased the engine first.

I actually have three #425s (edit: which are 2-6-4s) in the collection, and this one is by far the one in the nicest condition and the best running of the three. (edit: I also have 2 #423s which are 2-4-4s but both have been tinkered with; neither of which runs consistently - retirement projects.)

The three apple green cars joined the collection through another purchase.

You can only wonder what Gilbert would have created if they had continued to produce the O gauge line after the war.  Of course the samples of 3/16" O gauge equipment were a fortaste of the S gauge line to come.

Enjoying the World's Greatest Hobby

Northwoods Flyer

The Northwoods Flyer Collection

of

American Flyer Trains

"The Toy For the Boy"

  • Member since
    April, 2006
  • 6,273 posts
Posted by fifedog on Saturday, February 09, 2019 8:10 AM

Northwoods Flyer - Thanks to you, I must have a 423.  

  • Member since
    January, 2008
  • From: Wausau Wisconsin
  • 1,442 posts
Posted by Northwoods Flyer on Saturday, February 09, 2019 9:15 AM

Fife,

You are welcome.  I hope you enjoy it.  Its a powerful looking engine. I also hope it encourages you to add more Pre War Flyer to your stable.

The 420 is a nice engine too.  A good all purpose engine and a great puller.

Enjoying the World's Greatest Hobby

Northwoods Flyer

The Northwoods Flyer Collection

of

American Flyer Trains

"The Toy For the Boy"

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