Post war operating questions.

[Prairietype]

I have a few operating mysteries that I have never been able to understand clearly. I have a variety of manuals and guides from all kinds of sources but cannot get a definitive sense of "how to" from these sources. I hope that someone on this forum can help.

Question #1: When operating on 2 independent circuits connected by switches, is it possible to run a locomotive from one line onto the other with the e-unit switch in the position that allows reversing without the locomotive stalling when the transition occurs?

Question #2: I have often run two locomotives on the same track, even double-headed. Will  this injure the lomocotives? My 2363 runs faster than my 2343, and I've never been sure if the pulling of one over the sluggishness of the other is detrimental. Related to this is the problem that two locomotives take more juice than one, so is there a way to boost the power? This may be part of the third question.

Question #3: I've seen reference to operating two transformers in phase and can probably figure out the wiring without causing a fire or explosion, but what is the easiest way to phase a couple of KW's? Can this approach be used to provide extra power to 2 independent circuits? Does operating two transformers in phase allow for a compensating level of power for running several locomotives on the same track (i.e., power lock-on)?  

 

[phillyreading]

Answer for Q # 1; use insulating pins and block control by using singl pole double throw switches with center off's, wire one block to the first output terminal and the second to the second terminal, center terminal usually for input wire.  Also lock your locomotives in forward.

Q # 2; need to make sure that both engines run at the same speed or there may be some damage as slight as motor repair(cleaning brushes and armature) to possible gear damage, not saying it will happen but can happen.

Q # 3; you don't need to phase transformers, just use one double transformer per track, or use a post war 275 watt ZW as it has four output terminals on it. 

If you do phase two transformers you must join the common terminals together(only one wire needed) with at least a # 14 gauge wire, may want to put a fuse in to test if in phase, if not in phase pull out power cord on one transformer and reverse it and that should put two transformers in phase.  I find the purpose for phasing more for accessory operation than for train control, example-if I want to operate a highway flashing light with multiple contacts for  three or more tracks, I wire the commons or track connectors in parallel to the lights and run a positive to the signal lights.

Lee F.

[dsmith]

Here is what I know for sure. 

1.  I have two independent loops on my layout connected by switches and I have no problem switching from one track to the other.  I am using 2 LW transformers and have volt and amperage meters on both loops.  When the train switches from one loop the other there are no current or voltage spikes, even if the 2 transformers are set at different settings.  There are no glitches with the e-units and I have never had an engine stall at the transition point between the loops.  Sometimes I use an automatic circuit to automatically switch the train back and forth between the loops, so I have done this probably thousands of times with no problems.

2.  I'm not sure how many amps a 2343/2363 draws, but my 205/627/2018 postwar engines draw about 2 amps at 12 volts.  I often run 2 engines on the same loop or double end engines and the 2 engines draw about 4 amps at most.  My LW transformer (125 watts)can handle this easily.  As for double ending engines with different operating speeds,  I have done this with no problems and my gut feeling is that this won't cause a problem (although I don't have any real knowledge either way).  Once I took a faster engine and added 2 opposing diodes to the engine motor so that it would reduce voltage by about 1/2 volt.  This allowed the faster engine to run slightly slower so that it was approximately the same speed as the slower engine.

3.  I don't know anything about using 2 transformers in parallel on the same track to increase power.  With your KW transformers (195 watts) it seems to me that you should have plenty of power for 2 engines.  I have phased my transformers by simply running an engine from one loop to the other.  If they are out of phase, the engine will stop and there will be an immediate short.  If this happens, just remove one of the transformers and reverse the plug.  I have marked the side of all my transformers power cord plugs with a paint pen so that they can easily be kept in phase if you happen to unplug them.

[phillyreading]

Here is what I have done far as putting two or more engines together, I have put two Lionel NW-2 switches together a # 611(post war) & a # 8111(MPC era).  A KW or ZW should have plenty of power for both engines and a lighted car or two.

Lee F.

[ChiefEagles]

Lee, Phillyreading, send me an email.  Thanks

[Back2Trains]

I had 3 independent loops connected by 0-22 switches. Insulating pins were in place to completely isolate the loops. These were controlled by 2 phased ZWs (using 3 of the 4 main outputs available) through an electrical switching matrix that enabled me to control each loop independently or to control all 3 from one transformer output. I could also run a train from one loop to the next simply by opening the throttle lever for the next loop and adjusting speed once the engine was drawing power from that loop. I never had any problems of any kind when running this way. As long as there is minimum voltage on the track, usually 6 volts from a Postwar Lionel transformer at minimum throttle, the e-unit will not drop out. Just make sure your transformers are phased if you use more than one.

[lionelsoni]

Connecting two transformer outputs together is equivalent to putting a dead short across a transformer whose voltage is the difference between the two.  The current is limited only by the impedance of the transformers and the wiring.  If both outputs come from the same transformer, like a KW or ZW, the circuit breaker will not open and provides no protection.  You can get away with a brief connection with only a small voltage difference and many people do.  But if a train stalls over the block gap, you can perfectly well burn up a transformer or your wiring.  Do what Lee recommended and use toggle switches to assign blocks to transformer outputs.  That way you can cross block boundaries with one transformer control by assigning the track on both sides of the gap to that output.  You can also divide your track into numerous blocks even though you have only two controls, giving more flexibility of operation.

Universal motors, such as are found in postwar locomotives, are very compliant with regard to speed and share the load very well, even though they may run at different speeds when uncoupled.  This is not the case with modern DC "can" motors.

Do not wire the two outputs of a KW together.  From the KW service manual:  "Note that the circuit breaker does not protect binding post combinations A-B, B-D and C-U..."

When transformers are not in phase, running across block gaps between transformers can produce fireworks, since the voltage difference is always large.  Getting them in phase should be thought of only as a way to reduce the damage when you do it accidentally.  However, having an accessory transformer out of phase with the track transformer can reduce the voltage drop when the accessory circuits use the outside rails as their return.

 

[Prairietype]

Thank you dsmith,

Sometimes the best solution is also the easiest. It was a polarity situation. I did as you suggested and just reversed the plug, hoping, but thinking this probably won't do the trick-it's too simple. I knew I had everything insulated and wired correctly but didn't think or really know about the polarity effect. When I reversed the plug and sent the #2363 into the switch it rolled through smoothly without going neutral when it transferred to the other loop.Thank you so much! This was my major issue and #1 question. The other two questions were ones I thought I could work with based on an article I saw on phasing in CTT magazine, and wanted to get other expert opinions about.

Thanks to everyone who answered.

Prairietype