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Atlas switch~Wiring help needed

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Atlas switch~Wiring help needed
Posted by Fred Bear on Sunday, June 24, 2007 12:36 PM

I've been knocking this around now for a couple of weeks and can't come up with it on my own. I have an Atlas double slip switch for O gauge. 3 wires, middle is ground, outsides are hot. I'd like to have a train run up to this switch and throw it automatically so the trains cross over automaticall every time they approach the slip switch. I'm trying to do this by using insulated track pieces and making the ground side make the connection.  Yes, a cross over would have worked nicely,but I cannot find one that would have worked into the game plan like the double slip switch. I can make the switch worked automatically if I wire up only one hot terminal on the switch, but that only throws the switch one way. As soon as I wire up the other hot lead, the switch acts as if it's full of glue ( which of course it is not ). If I push the switch by hand, it will try to work back the other way, but again, as if it's full of glue. 16-18 volts on the switch, so I can't figure out why this is happening. Any ideas? Thanks to all, Jake

I am using a DSC system, can't it be programmed to do this work for me each time a train approaches?

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Posted by lionelsoni on Sunday, June 24, 2007 2:09 PM

When you say, "3 wires, middle is ground, outsides are hot", do you not mean that there are two coils, that the "middle" wire is connected to both coils, and that each of the other wires is connected only to one coil?  If that is the case, the middle wire is not or should not be considered "ground".  Connect it to the center rail or, if you want, to an accessory voltage that has its return in common with the outside rails.  Then connect each of your control rails to the appropriate one of the other two wires.

Bob Nelson

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Posted by Fred Bear on Sunday, June 24, 2007 4:48 PM
So you are thinking I have this backwards eh? Could very well be, and maybe that's why it drags when both outside terminals are hooked to a hot lead.  Hook the center to hot, and the two outsides to ground? Will this do it? I'll give it a shot. Thanks, Jake
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Posted by lionelsoni on Sunday, June 24, 2007 5:53 PM
You understand that only one of the "outside" wires should be grounded at a time, and then through a control rail, right?

Bob Nelson

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Posted by Fred Bear on Sunday, June 24, 2007 7:40 PM
Now I'm confused Bob. Can I do what I'm trying to do with the Atlas switch and the Atlas track? Thanks Bob, Jerry
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Posted by Anonymous on Sunday, June 24, 2007 9:08 PM
Fred

The Atlas switch machines (at least the older ones) have 3 leads,the middle is the common. . Voltage to either of the outside leads will throw the machine in either direction. It has 2 coils. You cannot power it constantly or you will burn the coils out. The Atlas switch provided is designed for momentary contact only. To do what you want you could activate a relay coil with the insulated rail and have its contact discharge a 4700uf 35 volt capacitor into the machine to throw it in the proper direction. Since only the power in the capacitor is discharged into the machine coil for a brief moment,it will not burn out..

Dale Hz
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Posted by Fred Bear on Sunday, June 24, 2007 9:22 PM
Dale, that's a bit over my head electronically, can you simplify it for me? or better yet, tell me what I need to buy in order to make that happen? Thanks much, Jake
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Posted by lionelsoni on Sunday, June 24, 2007 9:39 PM

Connect the turnout common, which is the wire that is connected internally to both the coils and apparently is the wire in the middle, to the supply voltage for operating the coils.  Connect each of the other two wires, each of which is connected internally to only one of the coils, to a control rail, that is, an insulated section of outside rail, located where you want to sense an approaching train that is going to switch the turnout.

As for that supply voltage, it should be returned to the outside rails generally (those outside rails that are not control rails).  This can be (1) the center rail of the track, or (2) an accessory voltage on the same transformer that you are using to run the trains, or (3) a voltage from another transformer or DC supply that is returned to the outside rails generally, or (4) a capacitor.

Dale's point is valid, that if you use (2) or (3), the train could stop on the control rail, operating a coil continuously and burning it out.  You can avoid this problem in most cases by using (1), with the idea that, when the train stops, there is no voltage available to the coils.  (This is the approach that Lionel took with the O27 turnouts.)  He suggests (4); and that is what I use.  However, no relays are needed.  Just hook the turnout common to the capacitor and return the capacitor to the outside rails, as if it were a power supply.  You then need to provide a way to recharge the capacitor.  You can do that with a 100-ohm 10-watt resistor connected between the capacitor and a single rectifier diode, like a 1N4001, in series with that.  If you ground the negative terminal of the capacitor, the diode's cathode (the striped end) should point toward the resistor, which will connect to the positive capacitor terminal.  The other end of the diode, the anode, will connect to an accessory voltage like you might have used in (1), (2), or (3).

If you want to go this way, why don't you tell us what transformer(s) or supplies you're using or have available, so we can tell you more precisely what to connect to what.

Bob Nelson

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Posted by Anonymous on Sunday, June 24, 2007 9:56 PM
Since you run DCS use a SPDT 24VDC relay. Run the + and - leads of a bridge rectifier to the relay coil. Hook the center lead of track power to one of the ~ leads on the bridge. Hook the insulated outside rail to the other ~ lead of the bridge. Put a 220 uf 35 volt capacitor across the + and - lead of the bridge in the proper polarity,this will eliminate chattering. Everytime train wheels cross the insulated outside rail ( longer than the longest car used) the relay coil will energize.

Run the switch machine power to 2 ~ leads of another bridge rectifier. Wire the + lead to the center connection of the switch machine and to the + end of a 2200uf 35 volt capacitor. Run the - of the capacitor to the relay contact common. Run the - of the bridge to the normally closed relay contact. Run the normally open relay contact to one of the outside switch machine contacts,the one to throw it in the direction desired.

When the relay coil is not energized the capcitor is connected to the bridge and is charged. When the relay coil is energized the - of the capacitor is disconnected from the bridge and connected to the switch machine lead where its energy is dischrged into the machine coil,throwing it in the proper direction.

24 volt relays are common on Ebay and from elecronic supplies. The rest can be purchased from Radio Shack. I dont use DCS so I dont know if the relay will shunt the signal.

Dale Hz
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Posted by lionelsoni on Sunday, June 24, 2007 10:55 PM

Dale, I would suggest putting a little resistance in series with the charging circuit, to limit the inrush current through the contact when the relay releases.

I don't see the point of using relays for this.  Think about the resistor that I just suggested.  It can actually be quite large, since there is no great hurry to recharge the capacitor--a few seconds is fast enough.  But, if the resistor is that large, there is no real need ever to disconnect it from the charging supply, since the recharge current that continues to flow after the capacitor is discharged but still connected to the coil is small enough to be harmless.  With the need for the normally-closed contact gone, the control rail can perfectly well be used directly to connect the coil to the capacitor, eliminating the need for the relays, bridges, and the smaller capacitor.

Reducing the charging current also makes it easy to obtain from a simple single-diode half-wave-rectifier circuit powered from any convenient AC accessory or track voltage.

I have found that an incandescent lamp suitable for the recharging-supply voltage (I now use a regulated 16-volt DC supply), like a number 53, recharges the capacitor faster than a resistor, for the same recharge current through the coil.  This is helpful to me since I now use a single capacitor to throw up to 7 turnouts at once, requiring a substantial increase in the capacitance, but still need to keep the recharge current low when only one turnout in the group is thrown.

Bob Nelson

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Posted by Fred Bear on Monday, June 25, 2007 5:17 PM
I have a Z4000 and a post war ZW, with Atlas track & switches, MTH engines, proto 2.0 and a remote DCS with AUI and TIU units. This sounds very complicated to me, sounds like maybe I should have worked the crossover in, but I really didn't want the crossover, I wanted a slip switch. Any advice you can give me on this is great appreciated. I have some degree of electrical knowledge, and have used insulated track quite a bit when I used tubular track.  Thanks for you help, both of you, and any further help now that you know what I'm using, would be greatly appreciated. Respectfully, Jake
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Posted by Anonymous on Monday, June 25, 2007 8:48 PM
Jake

If you want to use the relay method I described you may Email me and I will send you a wiring diagram via snail mail. I need to know how many total turnouts you need to throw. Bobs method probably will also work but I would have to experiment and work out resistor values. I am not familiar with using that method. The cost to make it with relays would be about $10 per switch machine throw for electrical parts. Explaining it is actually harder than building it. I am busy with outdoor projects right now but if you are not in a hurry I think I can help. Also you should check your switch machines and make sure you did not damage them by wiring them wrong. Apply 16 volts to the center screw to each outside screw on the machine to see if it throws in both directions. Do not apply power for more than a second to the machine coil or you will burn them out. My email address is rvdale@comcast.net

Dale Hz
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Posted by lionelsoni on Monday, June 25, 2007 8:48 PM
Okay, Jake.  The first thing I think is to locate where you want the control rails, insulate them, and connect them to the outside wires of the slipswitch.  Temporarily connect the center wire of the slipswitch to the center rail and just be careful not to stop on the control rails.  We'll sort out how to power the thing permanently after you are able to get it to work this way.

Bob Nelson

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Posted by Fred Bear on Monday, June 25, 2007 10:04 PM
OK, I'll experiment this weekend and see if I can make heads or tails out of this, Thanks you guys for your help, please stick with me on this one! Jake
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Posted by lionelsoni on Tuesday, June 26, 2007 11:31 PM

Jake, I've been wondering how you are planning to use this slipswitch.  It must have two states if it has two coils.  I imagine that one of them configures it to act like a crossing and the other one doesn't, that is, it makes it act like two overlapping curved track sections.  Am I right?  And where will you locate the control rails and how will they arrange the slipswitch?

None of this has anything to do with the way you power the coils.  But I'm just curious about what the grand scheme is.

Bob Nelson

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Posted by Fred Bear on Wednesday, June 27, 2007 2:29 PM

Bob, this thing is blowing my mind. I cannot figure out how to make it work. I'm not sure just yet exactly how this will work, but if we can invent a device for nailing studs, trim, space travel, living underwater, jet travel, parachuting, etc, I HAVE to be able to make this switch work this way! Jake

Any and all ideas you toss my way are most appreciated.

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Posted by MACADO on Wednesday, June 27, 2007 4:27 PM

Fred- Get a hold of Atlas, they will tell you how to wire that swtich so it works properly. The only thing that is wrong with that print is that you have to have the switch throw. (the power that moves/throws the turn out) seperate from the power throw. which  will swap the  center rail power from one rail to another That will become more clear when you get the print from Atlas. I belive this will get you started on the right track. If you need further assistance make a reply and I will try to get a hold of you. phone or e-mail,

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