Finally got a BEEP: the 027 layout review

[brianel027]

As you all know, I have been a vocal supporter of the RMT product line from the very beginning. Even got a email from Walter thanking me for my early support, long before everyone else jumped on the bandwagon. I've had more than my share of hardtimes, and spent a long unintended period out of work as did many thousands in my area. So train purchases took a back seat for a long time.

I was recently given an RMT BEEP - my very first one so you can imagine my excitement over this cool gift.... and so here as follows is what I will call a working man's 027 review of this loco.

To some degree here, I feel like a tad-bit of a fool. While I was hawking products like the BEEP, I also admitted I didn't have one yet. And while my expereince here doesn't dampen my excitement for the RMT product line-up... well read on.

The BEEP is a well constucted and put together locomotive as I have now had one completely apart and absoutely totally apart. Decoration and paint on my custom run EL model are superb. Bear in mind my following comments are based on running the BEEP on 027 track and 027 diameter switches, which include postwar and modern era MPC types.

While the BEEP is certainly many things, it IS NOT an 027 switch-friendly loco. The major pitfall with this loco is not the short space between the center rail pick ups, but the sprung long-arm collector pick up assembly. I have a good many cheaper short locomotives with wheelbases and space between pick ups not much better than the BEEP. But every one of those locos runs just fine on my layout, including Lionel Industrial Switchers and MPC era plastic-bodied Docksiders and 2-4-0 steamers.

On my layout, it was not a matter of stalling with the BEEP (as has been mentioned by the train magazines), but SHORTING OUT. The sprung long-arm collector pick up assembly was developed by postwar Lionel, but the big difference was on Lionel locos there was no space between the two assemblies. On the BEEP, there is a space between the two pick ups and going through 027 switches, the loco constantly shorted out... not stalled... there's a difference: The roller pick ups go hot. Again, not one single other loco I own has ever done this. I did have problems once with a postwar loco with the sprung long arm collectors, but I removed the spring from one of the rollers and it then ran fine.

I tried a number of tricks, including replacing the actual roller on the pickups with other rollers that had bevelled edges. I tried a bunch of other experiments and ideas... Nothing worked. I was thinking I was going to have to modify or design and rebuild the entire collector assembly. Looking over my boxes of spare parts, an idea came to me. So I gutted the entire inner base frame of the BEEP and modified it to accept a power truck assembly from a spare K-Line power truck with a truck mounted DC motor. The advantage here (as I saw it) was the design of the roller pick ups on the K-Line truck, using the shorter length pick up that snaps on to the contact strip.

And now my custom rebuilt BEEP runs like a champ.... no shorting through switches. YES, the wheelbase of the K-Line truck is actually shorter than that of the as-is BBEP. Those roller pick ups are critical, and the shorter pick up arms on the K-Line truck just work better on 027 track and switches. I pulled the grooved wheel (for the traction tire) on the K-Line power truck and replaced it with a normal one, so I use no traction tire. I added weight to the inside of the modified BEEP frame, and it'll now pull around 6-10 cars depending on the weight of the cars, which is about the same as the BEEP. Actually I've got it on the track now with 8 cars: 2 with die cast trucks and another 2 with roller pick ups on them.

The BEEP is certainly a needed kind of product for the 3-rail market at the right price. AS IS out of the box, the BEEP is certainly a good running loco for under the tree or a child's first train. The BEEP does fine going through the switches straight through. If your layout has a minimum of switches, it'll probably do fine. The BEEP, unlike other beginner can motored locos will not go flying off a child's layout.

Some have written about the special gearing of the BEEP which gives it slow speeds. There's nothing special about it. The BEEP uses a worm gear drive with metal gears. The big difference is the motor, which requires more current than the usual DC can motor in most low end locos. Mabuchi makes a wide variety of DC motors, and RMT is obviously using a different motor with higher voltage requirements. This is certainly lends itself to adding additional electronics. It also makes running postwar operating cars with the BEEP much easier since most PW operating cars need more current than do some of them modern ones.

I pulled the circuit board on my BEEP and ran it on direct DC current. Most locos I do this to run faster than they did before on higher voltage levels to the track. The speed of the BEEP remained the same with or without the circuit board. I have found unlike many other lower end locos, the BEEP runs much better on the A-U post setting of the 1033 transformer versus the B-U setting which I normally use.

I'll note here that years ago, I had the chance to run a William's version of this loco, the "Mighty Mite." And it DID NOT short out the way the BEEP does running through 027 switches. If my memory serves me right, I believe the pick ups on the "Mighty Mite" were vertically sprung mounted at each end of the inner motor housing, giving more space between the rollers and also avoiding the shorting out that is more prone with the long arm pick up collector.

I think that in order to be the real 027 friendly loco the BEEP is suppose to be, a modification to the pick ups is absolutely in order. This gives me some reluctance on getting a BEEF if they use the exact same inner chassis assembly. The BUDDY is another story entirely, as the trucks on it are just like the Lionel/K-Line type of lower end truck assemblies - which work just fine on 027 switches. And hopefully the same will be so with the newly announced RMT S-4, with origins from the 027 K-Line Alco S-2.

[Jumijo]

Veddy intereskink...sounds like you are just a little disillusioned, Brian. So was I when I got mine.

Jim 

[Dr. John]

Brianel,

Thanks for the great review. You've touched on an issue that can frustrate some three-railers, especially newcomers. With the variety of pick up types and spacings (rollers, slider shoes, sprung, un-sprung) the type of turnout one selects can become a point of frustration. For example, I collect Lionel prewar, postwar, Marx, Williams and even a few RailKing items. The Lionel pre-war and Marx engines with the large gear will not negotiate modern switches. Thus, the Marx switch or Lionel prewar O-27 switches become the best choice. However, more modern engines have difficulty with these switches (although the switches can be modified). To cut to the chase, I've decided that I'll always include one loop of track with no switches, so I can run any loco from any manufacturer or era. I'll still have some switches for sidings and industries on an inner loop. A compromise? You bet! Like you, I want to run my Beep, I just went a different direction (I don't have the confidence to make the modifications you are able to do). And I do agree, RMT really does have some great products! I'm looking forward to the release of the BANG and see how it compares to my K-Line S-2s. I e-mailed Walter, suggesting he add the GM&O scheme!

Hope I didn't get to off-track from your point! 

[lionelsoni]

The ideal pickup location is centered between a pair of flanged wheels, which keep the pickup centered always, regardless of the track's curvature, and away from grounded turnout parts.

For example, Lionel designed the truck of the Train Master with the roller under the axle farthest from the middle, which carries the blind wheels, causing the roller to swing far out on curves.  To get my 2321 through O27 turnouts, I simply rotated the pickup assemblies by 180 degrees, moving the rollers to a point between the flanged middle wheels.

 

[Anonymous]

Some have written about the special gearing of the BEEP which gives it slow speeds. There's nothing special about it. The BEEP uses a worm gear drive with metal gears. The big difference is the motor, which requires more current than the usual DC can motor in most low end locos. Mabuchi makes a wide variety of DC motors, and RMT is obviously using a different motor with higher voltage requirements. This is certainly lends itself to adding additional electronics. It also makes running postwar operating cars with the BEEP much easier since most PW operating cars need more current than do some of them modern ones.

You've hit on the BEEP's role on my layout. The BEEP's measured speed at maximum power from my Williams 150-watter makes it perfect for my 0-31 interior freight line. It runs with three postwar dump cars which work perfectly because of the high power, measured speed, and because the BEEP stops on a dime and makes change.

I have the blue/gray US Navy one and I love it.

[thor]

Well thankyou for that Brian! I must admit that I'm not entirely sure what all the palaver about the pickups was about (some pictures would have been very helpful) but as I only have one 027 track switch, I guess I can live with it or fix it if it proves to be necessary. What I was interested in though was the confirmation about the overall quality and performance. My preference has always been for brass gears and worm drive, so that was a plus and it sounds as if its performance is exactly what I want for switching duties and yard work. I only saw one recently at Trainland and I was very impressed. Their ad flyer and website doesnt do justice to them at all, they look much better than shown, really solid looking models.

If I may, a quick off topic rant about drive systems!

Over the years I've had a LOT of trains - N, HO and O- and seen a large variety of mechanisms but the best were the oldest and simplest, which were the original Hornby Dublo which is hardly surprising as Frank Hornby was an engineer first and foremost of the old school.

These locos used a diecast whitemetal chassis with a vertical 3 pole armature driving a worm and spurs of brass. They ran well except at an absolute crawl when the motor was prone to 'cogging' but they were strong and reliable, easy to adjust and maintain. A magnet mounted in the castings carried the field with two curved steel pole pieces to wrap around the exposed armature which was mounted in a fixed brass bushing at the bottom and a threaded lock nutted adjustable bushing at the top.

The early Hornby Dunlo rolling stock was all tinplate with metal wheels because the original system was 3 rail DC and so although a train could be quite heavy, these motors did the job well. NOTHING they came out with afterwards, the much vaunted and lousy Ringfield motor then the Tri-ang X04 were anything like as meaty, long lived or well behaved and I mention this HO stuff as a parallel to the similar original Lionel motors and the stuff thats come since. I'd rather have the original any day!

Frankly I don't believe that the newer drive systems are any kind of improvement and that their introduction has everything to do with cost cutting and nothing to do with good engineering practice. This includes traction tyres which are inventions of the devil as far as I'm concerned!

So - to return to the BEEP in hand - I am jolly glad to hear about how its driven and that has persuaded me to add one to my collection. Thanks for the review.

[traindaddy1]

I have had a BEEP for awhile now and still like it.  Currently, it is running on a non-switch oval so I do not have a 027 switch problem but I do have a question about the pulling power.

Would placing a second BEEP, directly behind the first, double the hauling power or would the second engine cause an unwanted problem?   (Probably asked before, but I don't recall the answer)  As always, thanks.

[Buckeye Riveter]

I have had a BEEP for awhile now and still like it.  Currently, it is running on a non-switch oval so I do not have a 027 switch problem but I do have a question about the pulling power.

Would placing a second BEEP, directly behind the first, double the hauling power or would the second engine cause an unwanted problem?   (Probably asked before, but I don't recall the answer)  As always, thanks.

I have read somewhere that you can put a teather between Beeps and all the stall problems are solved.  When I buy my second LV BEEP, I will tell you if it works.  Until then, my LV BEEP works great on its circle of track beneath the Christmas Tree.

[traindaddy1]

I have had a BEEP for awhile now and still like it.  Currently, it is running on a non-switch oval so I do not have a 027 switch problem but I do have a question about the pulling power.

Would placing a second BEEP, directly behind the first, double the hauling power or would the second engine cause an unwanted problem?   (Probably asked before, but I don't recall the answer)  As always, thanks.

I have read somewhere that you can put a teather between Beeps and all the stall problems are solved.  When I buy my second LV BEEP, I will tell you if it works.  Until then, my LV BEEP works great on its circle of track beneath the Christmas Tree.

Buckeye: Thanks.

[brianel027]

Thanks for the comments everyone.

Jaabat, it's not so much disillusioned as just a little let down and mostly for those who will buy this loco, believing as the ad says it's an 927 loco, and then finding it doesn't run easily through switches.

As a clarification, the main problem with the BEEP and 027 switches seems to be when running the loco into the switch from the curved side. Granted, it might do better on other types of switches, like FasTrack. Both train magazines mentioned their tests on standard 0 and had balking / stalling problems. Removing the traction tire could help with that, but you'd have to actually cut it off. The spacing between the frame and the wheels is so tight, that the only way you can replace the traction tire on the BEEP is to pull the entire thing apart.

I was very much thinking of guys like RaleighTrainFan as I was testing my BEEP. And again, for a kids train layout of mostly running, the BEEP is a perfect candidate and won't be flying off the track.

Thor, let me explain it like this: take your fingers and make the Winston Churchill "V" sign for victory. That's the construction of the Lionel sprung long arm pick up. Now inagine a big space at the base of your two fingers which spread the "V" like this: \    /. That's the probelm with the BEEP - the space between the bases of the two pick ups. Given the shortwheel base, and the space between pick ups and the length of the arm holding the rollers, it's evitable that the little goober is gonna short out on switches. When I first looked at the BEEP before I ran and saw those pick ups, I said to myself "this is gonna be trouble." But then I thought how many have spoken so well of it, so I thought it can't be. But it was trouble.

Dr. John, I don't know... guess it's from years of doing this stuff... tinkering with trains and pulling them apart even when they do work just fine. I just kept looking at it and thinking there's gotta be a way around this. I had thought about getting some of the spring mounted vertical pick ups that Lionel currently uses with the die cast trucks.

And then I thought about that extra motor chassis I had. I've gotten more mileage out of my Dremel than I ever imagined!! I just gutted the inside motor housing part of the frame until I could fit in the K-Line inner truck assembly (basically the motor, wheels, pickups but minus the coupler and the truck sides piece). Hey, I may be a toy train guy but I'm as prototypical as the real railroads when it comes to looking for ways to save money and cobbing one loco into another! The full scale guys might not realize it, but in this sense, I'm every bit as prototypical as they are.

MY revised BEEP does have the wheels inside the location of the journal boxes on the frame. But you don't really notice that too much when it's running. The truck sides on the BEEP are low enough that they cover most of the wheels anyways. I did sand down the window insert to give the windows a "glazed" effect. And I also painted the handrails: the front and back ones black to match the pilots and the side ones grey to match the Erie Lackawanna body AND it DOES look a whole lot better than the silver handrails.

I still think for the money, the BEEP ain't a bad loco. The size is nice and it really does look right at home on an 027 layout. But as it's made, it's not much of a switcher locomotive because of the shorting on the 027 switches. Again, as it is I think RaleighTrainFan has it right: the higher voltage requirement of the BEEP makes it a prime candidate for running on a loop with postwar operating and illuminated cars, unlike some of the other modern low end locos that would probably fly right off the curves at the same voltage the BEEP runs well on.

[Anonymous]

Again, as it is I think RaleighTrainFan has it right: the higher voltage requirement of the BEEP makes it a prime candidate for running on a loop with postwar operating and illuminated cars, unlike some of the other modern low end locos that would probably fly right off the curves at the same voltage the BEEP runs well on.

That's simply a stopped-clock situation, actually.

In all seriousness, I was disappointed with the BEEP when I first brought it home. "This thing is a piece of ... work," I thought. But on that interior line I just jack the dial on my father's old Trainmaster Type R all the way to the right and forget about it. That thing will just run, run, run, and smoothly, with 3-4 PW operating cars behind it.

 

[Brutus]

I really appreciate this review and the time you took.  I've been looking at these for a while and I have a bunch of O27 swiches, so I guess I'll have to wait for a new and improved model or something.  Thanks!

[brianel027]

Jim, it was guys like you that I wrote the review for, with some reservation. I want products like the BEEP to succeed, but in my estimation the roller pick up design of the BEEP is very flawed and exceptionally problematic on 027 switches. Whether RMT would consider what I think is a necessary change to a poor design is another story. It's just a little bit sad as this is a perfectly sized 027 layout loco (and is advertised as such), priced right, decorated well, but just will not run though 027 switches without major modifications.

I tried removing one of the BEEP's long arm pick ups and wiring up a second trailing car with a pick up assembly, but the BEEP's single long arm pick up STILL cause shorts on 027 switches. I had considered removing both of the BEEP's pick ups and wiring a second trailing car, such as a work caboose from where the BEEP would get it's power from the track with a tether.

Now that I have completely rebuilt one of these, I wouldn't hestitate to get a second one at some point, but it would have to be cheap enough to warrant my additional time and parts. I'd either rebuild it as I did my first one, or would try my initial idea of removing the BEEP pick ups and hooking up a companion car of some type for the BEEP to draw current.

I guess I still stand by my feelings that the K-Line 027 Alco S-2 is the best small switcher ever made for 027 layouts. Mine all run reliably through 027 switches and pull just fine, although I do make some small modifications to all of mine, including the addition of a spring between the front truck guide pin and the bottom of the frame to prevent derailments when pulling a long train.

The RMT BUDDY does NOT have the problems the BEEP does on 027 switches. I'm a little concerned though about the forthcoming BEEF if it indeed uses the identical chassis on the BEEP. I guess I'll look forward to what RMT does with the previously released K-Line S-2, now being called a S-4 BANG by RMT.

[lionelsoni]

If, as I think you are telling us, the pickup arms extend beyond the axles, a fix might be simply to cut the arms and rejoin (solder) them back together in a shorter version that puts the rollers directly under the axles.

[BobbyDing]

Hmmmm. I had the stalling problem with my Atlas switches. To fix mine, I added a pickup (out to the rite in the pic... Sorry it's not sharp) using a vertical pickup from a Lionel tender. Now it sails thru the big switches. Even with the mods I had to make, I still love the Beep. I plan on buying at least one more Beep, and probably a couple Beefs when they become available. They're priced rite for my low budget, so I don't mind doing a couple mods here and there.

Bobby

http://i70.photobucket.com/albums/i119/BobbyDing/Beep01.jpg

[BobbyDing]

Actually, if shorting on 027 is your problem now, you could add the pickup as I did above and then remove the (now) center pickup. Just an idea.

Bobby

[jjm]

Brian,

Thanks for your evaluation.  I have a beep, and I have had a few issues with it running on MTH RailTrax. It is very sensitive to uneven joints between sections.  I would be interested in seeing pics of your modifications.

[brianel027]

jjm, might make an intereting survey to find out the kinds of track folks are using with their BEEPS and what kinds of problems (or lack of) they are experiencing.

The short wheelbase and the traction tire could be causing you your problems. You could try removing the traction tire, which means either cutting it off or pulling apart the entire loco to get the traction tire off. You could try the idea some have used of a wired in trailing car with an additional pick up connected to the BEEP.

I don't have a digital camera. But what I did in a nutshell was:

If you turn your BEEP upside down you will see the metal plate that has the pick ups mounted to it. There are 3 screws here, two for pick ups and one for the ground wires that go up to the circuit board. The metal plate that covers the wheel bushings and axles has 8 screws. When this is entirely removed, a molded plastic housing remains. I measured my K-Line motor box truck housing and then litterally using my Dremel and a several types of grinding bits, removed most of this plastic housing. I also had to sand down the inner part of the truck sides of the BEEP. A small section had to be ground out quite a bit to make room for the backside of the K-Line motor mounting.

I didn't keep the BEEP circuit board as I run on DC current. I did have to cut a rectangular hole into the top surface of the BEEP frame chassis (the part you see when you first remove the BEEP body off the chassis) to allow the new K-Line truck mounted motor to go through.

The K-Line motor box housing has 4 spots for the normal truck side piece to be attached with screws. I utilized these to make the motor box housing attach to the BEEP frame.

I was a little intimidated at first wondering if my idea would work. But as work rapidly progressed, I found my idea was coming to actuality just fine. I added some lead auto tire weights to both the frame chassis and the upper long-end part of the BEEP shell. I replaced the lights with lower voltage bulbs using the existing light holder.

I also used a Dremel cone shaped cutting bit and drilled out the insides of the plastic molded horns to make them look better, more like the kinds that come on Lionel locos. I also painted the handrails, and at some point in the future I'll remove the headlight/number board/ marker light pieces and either color or replace the marker lights with actual ones... I have working red marker lights on many of my K-Line S-2's and Alco FA's.

DJ, no I haven't talked with Walter about this yet. I like Walter and the last time we talked, I mentioned this forum and mentioned he should monitor it. I suppose he can't post here like he does on OGR because of the clause in the rules for no promotion of products from their maker. I can't help but wonder that Walter must have heard some of these concerns from other operators... I know I have read some other comments about problems with stalling and such.

He did tell me that many changes were being made to his S-4 BANG that will inprove the loco from the YES existing K-Line version that it is being made from. And to put to rest another rumor, no Maury Klein is not working for RMT.

And a final note, my new revised BEEP is about a week old now and has been running absolutely fine... a far improvement over what it originally was. Although I'm a big fan of CR and NS, I also like the fallen flags that made up Conrail and Erie Lackawanna is a tough paint scheme to do and to get the right decals for smaller 027 models. So it's nice to finally have an EL loco on my roster. It now goes through all switches the original would not without shorting. And it now pulls more cars than it originally did. I have zero regrets over what I did, and like I said above, could consider doing up another one the same way at some future time.