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Adding MTH DCS to an existing Lionel TMCC Setup

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Adding MTH DCS to an existing Lionel TMCC Setup
Posted by Anonymous on Monday, May 7, 2007 8:25 AM

Good Morning Everyone,

I really like what I'm seeing in the new MTH catalog.  My present setup is Lionel TMCC, Lionel Command Base, Cab-1 remote and a powerhouse 180 transformer.  I don't use a CW, ZW etc. as I don't run any conventional locomotives.

I was reading in the new MTH catalog that as long as I had the TMCC command base (which I do) I could run DCS and TMCC locomotives at the same time.

So would I only need to add the DCS Remote Control System along with the TIU/TMCC connector cable to make it all work?  I understand I could still use my TMCC Cab-1 if I wanted...but do I lose any functionality of my TMCC Locomotives by only using the MTH controller?  Can I continue to get by without going to a ZW type controller?  I do realize that as my layout grows and I add more accessories, locomotives etc. I'll need to add an additional 180 transformer. 

Thanks for your time.

Jerry

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Posted by laz 57 on Monday, May 7, 2007 8:32 AM

YEP, you will be good to go with the DCS set up and TIU, and cable.  I have mine set up with this same set up but have it on a newer ZW with 180 blocks o power.  I have had no problems.  I do how ever run my TMCC with the Cab1 and MTHs with the DCS.  Makes it nice when you have someone over to run trains, they too can play.

laz57

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Posted by Anonymous on Monday, May 7, 2007 8:34 AM

Laz,

Thank you....Yea I figure keeping the Cab-1 will benefit me as friends/family are visiting.  Thanks again for the response. 

Jerry

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Posted by phillyreading on Monday, May 7, 2007 9:37 AM

According to MTH you can add TMCC, as Laz57 reccomends, and control the TMCC engines with the DCS handheld remote.  Can't say how everything will work!   If you can use the TMCC handheld remote with DCS or not I don't know.  Just know that you can not get all the features from TMCC using DCS only or get all the DCS features using TMCC.

Lee F.

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Posted by chuck on Monday, May 7, 2007 12:08 PM
You need to keep the CAB-1 around as not all of the funtions of TMCC have been migrated to DCS.  Things like reprogramming ID's or setting momentum/stall are not handled by the emulator.  Cable also has problems in that you can not use the cable IF you are using any of the serial port connected devices like a TPC, or ASC.  You will also have to reprogram any Lashups in DCS and you cannot access any Switch/Accessory/Route functions as these are not directly supported.
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Posted by Anonymous on Monday, May 7, 2007 12:12 PM
 laz 57 wrote:

YEP, you will be good to go with the DCS set up and TIU, and cable.  I have mine set up with this same set up but have it on a newer ZW with 180 blocks o power.  I have had no problems.  I do how ever run my TMCC with the Cab1 and MTHs with the DCS.  Makes it nice when you have someone over to run trains, they too can play.

laz57



Yeah and Laz is going to come by and help me get it all wired together too!

(well at least I hope he is!)  LOL!
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Posted by jefelectric on Monday, May 7, 2007 6:50 PM

Brent, the wiring isn't compicated.  I use the DCS controllers to run my TMCC locos most of the time.  The grandkids don't like the TMCC cab 1.  The DCS controller is more user friendly.

Just my My 2 cents [2c].

John Fullerton Home of the BUBB&A  http://www.jeanandjohn.net/trains.html
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Posted by Anonymous on Monday, May 7, 2007 7:03 PM
I'm sure it isn't too difficult John.  I'm just wondering if it would be better to use a couple TPC 400s with the Modern ZW to make conventional control easier... or run the conventional locos using DCS... I guess what I need to do is make a trip to someone's place that has the dual setup to see what it is like.  Is it possible to run conventional locos at slow speeds, or is it better to upgrade them to TMCC?  The problem I have with my locos is only one has speed control and it drives me nuts... guess I just need to buy a bunch of EOB Boards from ERR in October...
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Posted by chuck on Monday, May 7, 2007 7:14 PM

Is it possible to run conventional locos at slow speeds,

No.  The only way to control conventional loco's at slower speeds is to use a newer ZW or a TPC.  DCS only allows 32 speed steps and has a higher starting voltage than either the new ZW or the TPC.  You SHOULD be able to control a TPC through DCS if it was programmed as an engine and the cable connecting the TPC to the Command Base wasn't a mess.  If you want/like speed control you can replace the electronics with a PS-2 system or a TMCC system with some type of Cruise Control (e.g. EOB). 

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Posted by Anonymous on Monday, May 7, 2007 8:51 PM

Awesome.....

I bought the DCS setup and a BNSF SD70MAc Locomotive.  I'm extremely pleased with the way that DCS runs both the MTH BNSF, but also my two other TMCC locos.  I feel the DCS system gives far greater control over speed.  The only thing that I regret is not being able to form a lashup between DCS and TMCC. 

Thanks for everyones help with this today.

Jerry

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Posted by phillyreading on Tuesday, May 8, 2007 10:26 AM

JTaylor801,

When you mentioned not being able to form a lashup between DCS & TMCC do mean the locomotives that run on TMCC & DCS, like two GP-9's but one MTH the other Lionel, or the control units?

Lee F.

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Posted by Anonymous on Tuesday, May 8, 2007 10:31 AM
You're unable to form a MU (lashup) locomotive consist between TMCC locos and DCS locos.  Attempted to lashup an MTH loco to a Lionel loco.  No worky....
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Posted by phillyreading on Tuesday, May 8, 2007 10:44 AM

Have you tried using the DCS handheld remote to do the multiple unit lash-up by addressing both locos thru the DCS remote?  Try using the TMCC remote if the DCS remote don't work, I think that you can address both locos thru one remote.

Lee F.

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Posted by Anonymous on Tuesday, May 8, 2007 10:47 AM

Yes...the message on the DCS handheld states something like can't lashup with TMCC.  I searched on this forum and found many threads discussing the issue.  Most are several years old though....

Has anyone found a way around this?  Lee have you found a way around this?

Jerry

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Posted by phillyreading on Tuesday, May 8, 2007 10:56 AM

Maybe Laz57, jefelctric or the Chief can help you on this one as I think they have both TMCC & DCS.

I was just taking a shot in the dark on it.

Lee F.

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Posted by laz 57 on Tuesday, May 8, 2007 10:59 AM
 chuck wrote:

Is it possible to run conventional locos at slow speeds,

No.  The only way to control conventional loco's at slower speeds is to use a newer ZW or a TPC.  DCS only allows 32 speed steps and has a higher starting voltage than either the new ZW or the TPC.  You SHOULD be able to control a TPC through DCS if it was programmed as an engine and the cable connecting the TPC to the Command Base wasn't a mess.  If you want/like speed control you can replace the electronics with a PS-2 system or a TMCC system with some type of Cruise Control (e.g. EOB). 

 

BRENT as CHUCK wrote, the newer ZW will be able to run your conventionals with the Cab1.  You don't need to get a TPC.  Tracks 1and 4 is set up for a variable track power.  Just adress the TR and either 1or 4 and use the knob.  You get to controll bell, whistle, and direction with the CAB1.

laz57

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Posted by Anonymous on Tuesday, May 8, 2007 11:03 AM

Thanks Lee...I appreciate it.  I was an MTH virgin just 24 hours ago and now I wish I had taken the leap sooner.  I once thought I would be loyal to Lionel....then saw the value in some of the Atlas products.  When I saw the latest MTH catalog.....well that is what did it. 

I knew going into DCS that it wouldn't control TMCC @ 100%.  And I'm not discouraged by the fact that it appears I can't do lashup's between the two.  However, I would think that would be an awesome feature for MTH to work on in future releases of their software.  Of course, it could be by design as well.  This will drive more purchases toward MTH versus the rest.

So how bout it Laz, Jefelctric, Chief???  Have you guys figured out how to setup a MU between TMCC and DCS locomotives? 

Jerry

 

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Posted by phillyreading on Tuesday, May 8, 2007 11:13 AM

When I got my DCS unit it was a bit hit & miss then back to the instruction manual several times.  I now have an AIU hooked up to the TIU and it controls seven switches on differant tracks, tracks that are not controlled by the TIU's output.  Also my switches are Gargraves with DZ1000 switch motors, so I don't rely on track power at all for my switches.

I used to be loyal to Lionel until about 14 years ago when some O gauge switches starting giving me trouble and Lionel would not help me with the problem.

Lee F.

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Posted by Anonymous on Tuesday, May 8, 2007 11:35 AM
I'm still undecided about how I want to throw my switches.  I've looked into the MTH AIU and Atlas switches.  I believe it will work.  Then there are days that I'm thinking I want to wire everything to a control panel type setup.  Just trying to get my head around which way would be the best.
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Posted by Anonymous on Tuesday, May 8, 2007 1:03 PM
 JTaylor801 wrote:
I'm still undecided about how I want to throw my switches.  I've looked into the MTH AIU and Atlas switches.  I believe it will work.  Then there are days that I'm thinking I want to wire everything to a control panel type setup.  Just trying to get my head around which way would be the best.


It really isn't about 'best' it is more 'what do you prefer'.  I was wondering if I wire my switches with TMCC if I can still throw them manually?
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Posted by chuck on Tuesday, May 8, 2007 2:28 PM

You can wire up the switches to work from a remote throw near the switch, a remote throw at a console, from an AIU, from an ASC, or an SC-2.  You can even wire them up in parallel so that ALL of the elements on the previous list are available, much like the way hallway lights can be wired to throw from different parts of a building.

You can't lash up a non DCS loco to DCS loco because of the speed control issues.  You can lash up multiple non DCS locos under DCS.  This is totally seperate from a TMCC lashup.  TMCC stores the lashup identity inside the loco's, DCS is partially in the handheld partially in the loco. 

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Posted by Anonymous on Tuesday, May 8, 2007 11:17 PM

Perhaps there's hope.....

I just noticed in the recent MTH catalog, on page 2 under the "What's new - and not new - with DCS".  I quote, "We're working on the next software upgrade to give you more of the features you've requested:  expanded TMCC capabilities, including lashups".

So does this possibly mean that when this new software version is released DCS and TMCC locomotives can be setup in a lashup???

Jerry

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Posted by phillyreading on Wednesday, May 9, 2007 8:37 AM

I think you will have to buy the new DCS TIU(Track Interface Unit) to be able to do that, but maybe MTH will sell an upgrade kit for your current DCS/TIU.

Hopefully you will be able to run both TMCC & DSC locomotives in the same lashup with the new software. May be a year or more before MTH releases this new DCS program due to licensing or legal issues.

Lee F.

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Posted by chuck on Wednesday, May 9, 2007 8:42 AM
You could do it now IF you could disable speed control in both loco's.  I know that unless the TMCC loco is a newer one with a physical Odyssey on/off switch, you can't disable Odyssey.  I also know you can temprorarily disable speed control in DCS/LocoSounds at start up, but I'm pretty sure they revert when the power is cycled.
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Posted by phillyreading on Wednesday, May 9, 2007 8:55 AM

Just looked in the new MTH catalog, volume two 2007 page four, and DCS can be updated over the internet. I guess you download the program from the MTH website then download it to the DCS unit via computer cable.

Lee F.

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Posted by Anonymous on Wednesday, May 9, 2007 9:57 AM

Hi Lee,

Yes you can.  However, MTH hasn't released the new version that I mentioned earlier from page 2 of that same catalog.   The ability to update the software is another reason why I really like the DCS product.  Anyway...here's what is stated in the catalog

On page 2 under the "What's new - and not new - with DCS".  I quote, "We're working on the next software upgrade to give you more of the features you've requested:  expanded TMCC capabilities, including lashups".

Not sure on a release date...could be a year.  But it's something to think about and look forward.

Jerry

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Posted by ChiefEagles on Wednesday, May 9, 2007 10:17 AM

Keep your CAB1 and use TPC [unless you have new ZW].  Just add TIU and remote to run MTH engines.  I have one DCS remote and 2 CAB1's.  CAB1's will run conventionals a lot better than DCS remote.  I know.  Tried it with DCS first and then went to TMCC.  Wiring is not that hard.  If you are using Post War ZW [or other PW transformers], use fast acting breakers or fuses.

 Have done more improvement since this was done.  Added another TPC [one for each mainline] and moved Command Base up to top of benchwork due to interferance.  Did change all of my TIU ports to fixed voltage and running through them.

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Posted by chuck on Wednesday, May 9, 2007 1:08 PM

give you more of the features you've requested:  expanded TMCC capabilities, including lashups

Right now the ONLY TMCC commands supported by  DCS are ENGine commands.  Not TRain/TRack, not RTE (route), no SWitch, no ACCessory.  By adding TR support you could address a TMCC lashup without having to recreate it under DCS.  This has nothing to do with creating lashups of different types of loco's, particularly ones with different types of speed control.

When everything else fails, play dead

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