While at York you might want to...

[MartyE]

Maybe instead of everyone kissing these guys butts at York and telling how great they are we should hammer them all on QC and service issues. This is for all the manufacturers. There are some people who refuse to hold these guys to the flame because of brand loyalty or some sense of being an "insider". I say baloney...

Yes they make nice stuff. Let them know what you like but in the same conversation let them know that the QC thing is BS and they need to fix it or they won't have any money left to make more stuff. Let them know what you dislike the repair times, failures, lack of parts. York is one of the few time where you can tell Mike that his repair times stink. Tell Jerry or whoever shows up in his place that the QC from Lionel is poor. Whoever the vendor is and the issues associated with them. I am not advocating rude or bad behavior but I am encouraging persistence and firmness.

It's time to put up or shut up if you are attending York. Can't get any better time as Mike is always hanging around the Tinplate area of MTH as the rest of his crew, the Lionel folks are easily found at Lionel. Other vendors are there usually in the official shirt of their respective companies.

Once again please be firm but polite. But get your product problems across to them.

Off the soap box

[nblum]

Sounds like a plan Marty.  Hopefully everyone will keep it civil and the flamers will be out having funnel cakes and sausage ;).

[brianel027]

I don't know Marty.... while you make a very valid point, I can sympathize with the companies somewhat. The same gang at YORK screams for this as that to be made - all scale items, all high end and all with limited production and all from new expensive tooling. The train companies have been more than foolhearty to be like lemmings and go off that cliff. Most of these high end locomotives seldom have lengthy production runs and many only have a few thousand items made. Folks may praise the Lionel Acela, but far far more Pennsylvania Flyer 4-4-2 train sets are sold in one given year than the Acela. And for it's 2,000 piece production run, the Acela is still available and for sale.

I don't know if it's realistic to expect any company to actively stock parts for an item that was only made in a few thousand. Expecially when that same item cost millions to bring to market. On the other hand, I've never had any trouble getting parts for my lower-end train items. Those items may be held in disdain by some, but they are made in the tens of thousands and generally from tooling that has been around for a while. And generally have fewer parts and those parts tend to be more universal - giving the companies a little more practical and profit reason to stock them. I wouldn't mind Alco truck sides being used on a non-scale shortened 027 version of a Dash-9 type loco, but I know some would scream bloody murder at that idea. But then again, those guys wouldn't buy something like that, and wouldn't understand when that product starts selling in the ten's of thousands and makes money.

It's hard to have it both ways. A minority of the market cries out incessantly for more high end items. In order to be able to afford to do this, we now have off shore production. With the lower production costs, the companies can afford to try and make the new items they've already been making. But with all the related recent development and tooling costs, I don't know how practical it is (probably not at all) for any train company to immediately stock one of a kind unique parts for every single new product the minute those products arrive on the US mainland.

I also suspect that a good part of the QC issues are related to both the overseas production and shipping logistics, as well as the more sensitive and fragile nature of many of these new products. Again, I have not had the issues with the types of trains I like and buy, that many others have had with higher end trains. For example, everyone I personally know that likes TMCC and DCS has had at least one if not more products come DOA right out of the box. My favorite loco of all time in the non-scale K-Line Alco S-2. And I could list all the others similar to that one - none of which have ever arrived DOA, nor have I had trouble gettiing parts. And I have never needed to send them back for service. What service they do need, I can do and most times they get pulled apart because I am making standard changes to them.

I don't know for sure, but I doubt RMT is having these kinds of QC/parts issues with the BUDDY or the BEEP. And I doubt Williams is dealing with these issues either.

LIke I said, I think it's really hard to have it both ways. The train companies have given in and made many items some hobbiests have cried out for with all the delicate, scale fragile details and electronic feature they clammor for. Most people don't realize the vast sums of money that go into this. Not one single scale loco sells in the quantities that the Polar Express set did. Or any other Lionel basic starter set for that matter.

I for one would like to see absolutely no scale products produced for one year, and to see that investment capital put into some new basic low end products. It's be wonderful to see Lionel do a new non-scale 027-zied modern day equal (like a Dash-9 loco) to the 1950's Alco FA... a 14 inch max. length, 3-1/2 inch max. height basic loco with no new electronics. Now that would be a BIG hit and have lots and lots of long term sales. But you imagine the reaction to that product being announced on the OGR forum.... batten down the hatches!!!

Outside of Lionel messing around with the transformer and making the ill-fated CW, the basic non-frills trains don't have nearly as many QC issues as the newer high end trains do. Yes, if I were at YORK I'd ask the manufacturers to address these issues - and stop making electronic ladden high end trains period, and go back to making the trains that not only work reliably, but actually make profits too.

I'd like to see Lionel ditch Legacy too. It still doesn't work, no one knows when it will, and it certainly won't be affordable when it's finally out. I'd rather see a simple, universal transformer based attachement that would allow hand-held wireless control for absolutely any train locomotive ever made. Something simple, practical and streamlined that could potentially sell in droves.

But simplicity and practicalility got left behind ages ago. People have forgotten about the magic of imagination. Poeple wonder how can I have fun with my simple non-scale trains without any digital sound or control... that's been asked of me on the OGR forum. Truth is I do have fun. And have no QC issues, can get service, readily find parts, never wait months for a DOA loco to return, and my trains ALWAYS work and ALWAYS run. Some may laugh at me, but I can inturn as easily now laugh at them as they get the notice saying their train item for repair won't be ready for 6 months minimum.

[rustycoupler]

 bring a big bouncer with you and take 1,ooo  pictures and put them on the internet . let the cat out of the bag ,c mon man !

[rustycoupler]

 kick out the old guys trying to sell the same old crap that nobody wants ,and they want top dollar for.

[csxt30]

 kick out the old guys trying to sell the same old crap that nobody wants ,and they want top dollar for.

Well, you'll be old someday too. I fail to see why it would matter even if their prices are high. They may be there at least showing support for the TCA & having a good time seeing the same friends each year & probably doesn't even matter if they sell anything or not. That trip is probably a great thing for them to look forward to each year or each 6 months.  I'm looking forward to doing just that when  retire !  Though I may not be selling anything !  

[rustycoupler]

 i agree with you if you have friends there its fine , to me its just a bunch of grumpy old men that need ashower, i like old trains , but these guys are rediculious.

[ChiefEagles]

Yes, tell MTH about their poor quality switches that have been made recently.  Jagged edges on switch points, wired backwards to derail, control rails sliding and touching regular rails [thus making the switch think a car is in the switch] and hard to get them to mate with track sections. 

Now Yanks, don't stand too close to each other in one group.  There will be  a REB there.  Might get GRITTED.  

[DMUinCT]

Ask about, inform about, problems with there products.  They should want the feedback.  They should want to fix it.  Remember, they rebuilt the hobby after the disaster of the 1970s.  Also they are fellow members MEMBERS of TCA.  Yes, even the Dealers and the people working for the Dealers must be members.

[Frank53]

Andy from MTH made a response to a similar topic elsewhere. In a nutshell his comments were that quality is imrpoved according to the company QC statistics.

What I found humorous in teh post was (paraphrased) -- "since this topic comes up every year around this time, I'll just archive this post and report it next year."

Don't know about anyone else, but I read that to be - when you guys complain about quality next year, we'll give you the same tired answer we gave you this year.

[mickey4479]

Marty, while you are dropping the H bomb on them, could you please corner the Lionel rep(s) and tell them they better make a scale PRR decapod when cleaning up all these issues? 

[Buckeye Riveter]

Yes, tell MTH about their poor quality switches that have been made recently.  Jagged edges on switch points, wired backwards to derail, control rails sliding and touching regular rails [thus making the switch think a car is in the switch] and hard to get them to mate with track sections. 

Now Yanks, don't stand too close to each other in one group.  There will be  a REB there.  Might get GRITTED.  

And also ask MTH why the dealers had inadaquate supplies of Realtrax straight track over the Christmas Holidays.    

Chief, there is something definitely different in the switches I purchased in the last year compared to the switches purchases in 2001.  There is too much play in the vertical direction. 

A report on the new Atlas track system would be appreciated.

Make sure you pat down all Sutherners for grits. 

[MartyE]

They're installing Grit Detectors at the entrance to the fairgrounds...but alas they are being manned by the TSA.

[LS1Heli]

 kick out the old guys trying to sell the same old crap that nobody wants ,and they want top dollar for.

Ain't that the truth. And then 2 weeks later you find that junk on eBay and them getting a 1/4 of what they were asking for it at York. 

I don't see and never will see any glory in TCA or York. 

[cwburfle]

 kick out the old guys trying to sell the same old crap that nobody wants ,and they want top dollar for.

Ain't that the truth. And then 2 weeks later you find that junk on eBay and them getting a 1/4 of what they were asking for it at York. 

I don't see and never will see any glory in TCA or York. 

 

Please feel free to stay home.

 If you do attend, and see something priced higher than you'd like to pay, then just walk on by.

[brianel027]

"tell them they better make a scale PRR decapod."

I'm sorry, but the last thing this hobby needs (well, in a close tie with yet another lawsuit) is one more scale loco that costs millions to bring to market, gets made in a low quantity, and then gets blown out anyways. Lionel made 2,000 Acela sets which many clamored for. Lionel may have gotten their minimal dealer orders, but the sets are still readily available for those who can afford them and have the layout to run them.

Fortunately as outlined in his OGR interview, Mr. Calabrese already knows what I am saying. And in light of the K-Line debacle, it is more than obvious that the market cannot sustain the production of so many high end, low run products with insufficient buyers. There have been a couple of product announcements from 3rd Rail of locos many "claim" they want to have, but when 3rd Rail annouces the price, they don't get enough pre-orders to make them. You can't have cheap scale locos if they cost millions to make and only a limited market to buy them.

RMT has the right idea. What this hobby needs is a NON-scale, affordable locos that the masses can run and purchase. And that means far far fewer scale "Decapods" and a lot more locos like the RMT BEEP, PEEP, Buddy and the Lionel Dockside switcher.

And as far as overpriced stuff at YORK - yep, it's there. And often there every year. Until they HAVE to sell the stuff. I was at a house sale where the guy had health problems and NEEDED cash fast. I was looking at his Lionel 2242 with boxes in super shape... he told me $175.00 cash would take it. But I was out of work and couldn't even afford that. He too had also been laid off.

Funny how LITTLE the trains are actually worth when you MUST absolutely sell them. But I did get an orignal Bronx Zoo operating giraffe car for $5.00.

Or wait til the guys die and then the families are stuck with the stuff. They'll sell it cheap cause they want it out of the house.... I've seen that one happen a few times.

Just goes to show the real value of this hobby will NOT be found in a price guide being shoved in your face by some seller at a train show. But I understand... they're just trying to get as much as they can for their trains. Too bad they didn't sell them a decade ago when the prices being readily paid were a lot higher.

The market today has changed and now some of the sellers need to accept this fact.

[C_Siegel]

Wow!!  Glad I'm not going to York!!  Sounds more like a war!

[Frank53]

I was at a house sale where the guy had health problems and NEEDED cash fast. I was looking at his Lionel 2242 with boxes in super shape... he told me $175.00 cash would take it. But I was out of work and couldn't even afford that. He too had also been laid off.

       

[Frank53]

Just goes to show the real value of this hobby will NOT be found in a price guide being shoved in your face by some seller at a train show. But I understand... they're just trying to get as much as they can for their trains. Too bad they didn't sell them a decade ago when the prices being readily paid were a lot higher.

they may be trying to get as much as they can, but I would guess these same sellers are trying to beat the daylights out of anyone they are b-u-y-i-n-g from. "Oh, this is practically worthless because of (fill in the blank). Then it's on their table at the next train show for 20x what they paid hyped as a rare variety.

[Anonymous]

Folks that want to file complaints about this, that, or the other at York (or elsewhere) ought to make plans to attend themselves. Why ask someone else do your dirty work for you?  York provides an opportunity to relax and have fun, so if you have complaints, send these folks a properly worded, businesslike letter, or speak with your wallets.

[Anonymous]

You can go to any trainshow and find stuff that is over priced, in your opinion, in someone else's it may be under priced, or even priced just right.

I have found that people who claim items are over priced what to buy a pristine 681 and get it for $25.00... sorry but that is just plain crazy.  If you don't agree with someone's price, stop them and make an offer.  If they don't like your offer they will counter or walk away.  They have the right to reject your offer, just as you have a right to scoff at their asking price... It is called life, get used to it.

I also don't have a problem with someone asking for something to be brought up.  Many people share the same feelings and if someone can not attend and they would like their voice heard and ask someone with like feelings to bring it up, where is the harm?

I have purchased a few items that have had issues out of the box, more than I care to acknowledge (4 engines in 3 years), and you can bet your bottom dollar if I see someone and have the opportunity I'll mention something about it!  IMHO, QC has not been getting better, it has been getting worse and that is something ALL manufacturers should be concerned about... heck with as many engines as Lionel and MTH put out each year you would think they would want near 99% run rate with < 1% warranty repair.  Warranty repairs cost the companies a lot of money.  Just because they get the parts for pennies on the dollar doesn't mean it doesn't impact them... they are paying someone to repair the items as well as shipping costs.  That could run them upwards of $30 - $50 per engine per repair... and maybe even more!

[fifedog]

I agree, in part, with brianel027 ("in part" because I only have enough time in my day to read the first chapter of his posts).  The manufacturer reps catch an earful of gripes & groans all weekend at YORK, and they take it with a smile.

I intend to give MIKE a "Thank you" for negotiating the deal with Uncle Pete.

Guys, enjoy the show.

[MartyE]

I intend to give MIKE a "Thank you" for negotiating the deal with Uncle Pete.

 

I would also do the same but IMO don't let them bambuzzle you with new stuff and let them know, if you feel the need, to point out issues you have. 

[fifedog]

I intend to be bamboozled with the aroma of PROTOSMOKE.  For me, YORK is a relaxing experience.  Why go into such an arena with malice in one's heart.  (did I really just write that)

I'm going to enjoy the rows and rows of trains.  I'm going to enjoy the commeradery of the FORUM members at 1300 hours on Friday.  To all you lurkers and shirkers, form your own line outside the brick pillars.  To everyone else, again "Come on in boys; the water's fine..."

[Buckeye Riveter]

Fifedog, if you could, would you do some dirty work for me?  If you hear anything on why we can't seem to get MTH straight track since before Christmas, and what the status of the shipments are of straight track, it would stop me from tearing out existing track and putting in something else or it would tell me that a certain LHS is blowing smoke.  I would like to join you but unfortunately, the State of Ohio has made it difficult again this year.  Will they ever understand that I would like to take vacation in April to attend York.  When is York going to become a National Holiday and then the state would be shut down? 

[fifedog]

Buckeye - 10-4, good Buddy.

[Buckeye Riveter]

Buckeye - 10-4, good Buddy.

.

I'll buy the next time you are in Buckeyeland.

[brianel027]

Thanks Fifedog for giving me a good chuckle.

YORK is no different than any train show in respect to dealers and prices. BUT it is different in that it is one of, if not the biggest train show. I've been a few times and it's great. I ignore what I can't afford or disinterests me and focus on what does interest me - which there is always more than one can see in one day.

Other than lack of modern roadnames on 027 trains, I got no complaints for the companies or their reps. I would imagine Jerry and Mike would be very happy to see me and chat:

-I don't buy TMCC, have ZERO interest in Legacy. If they want to charge $60 list for a cheap tank car, that's OK cause I'm never gonna buy that, so I'm content.

-I buy scant little MTH because of the added electronics. When MTH makes affordable 027 horn only locos, I'll buy. So their lack of parts or poor service is of no concern to me.

I'd think all the companies would want to talk to more guys like me. I don't need nor want all the electronic bells and whistles and therefore am quite happy with my trains. And if Lionel and MTH want to keep focusing on the smallest segment of the market, making high end trains most can't afford with all the related QC issues inherent in low-run products, there's one guy at YORK we may be hearing much more from.... Walther Matuch of RMT.

Remember, K-Line and MTH started off small just like RMT. Walter seems to understand the future of the hobby (or at least what's needed now), and the future may be all his.