I've had these nagging questions floating around in my head for some time. What happened to the prices of Lionel products once the company completely moved all of its product manufacturing overseas to China? How do the prices of the same items, those once manufactured in the USA and those now manufactured in China, compare to each other? I suspect the prices of the items continued to rise and consumers noticed no savings.
The rationale corporations often give the public for taking American jobs overseas is so they can keep down production costs. If production costs are indeed reduced while the cost of products continues to rise year after year, then who is the beneficiary of these savings? It's obvious the corporations are the ones reaping the benefits of offshore production while raping the American worker. Please don't automatically blame "the unions" for this epidemic. If you do, you are buying right into all the crap corporations attempt to spoon feed the American citizenry while they continue to stuff their pockets with cash.
I believe more than ever the United States is on the verge of a tipping point. With the loss of good American jobs (especially in the manufacturing sector) and the subsequent erosion of the middle class, we need to take a critical look at our current spending habits and economic policies. What are we willing to sacrifice just so we can pay a few dollars less for a shirt at Walmart? Which is more important, saving a few dollars on a refrigerator manufactured in Mexico or spending a bit more so an American can keep his/her job and provide his/her family with a decent living? One manufacturing job kept in America has for greater positive impact on the economy than the dollars one person might save purchasing that same product made in another country.
I never thought of myself as a "Buy American" fanatic (Unfortunately, that is almost completely impossible to do anymore). However, I'm sure we all know of someone (if not yourself) who has lost his/her job completely or had to take a lower paying job with less wages and benefits due to off-shoring. Right now, I believe the best thing we can do to stem the tide of American job loss is to use our political system to levy change on these negative (immoral?) business practices. Let our politicians know where we stand on this issue and we demand quick action to save American jobs and the middle class. Lastly, think twice before you make your next tool purchase, for example. Realize your purchasing practices and choices can have a great effect on the future of this country.
Sincerely,
Martin
Bob Keller
Don
To bring the discussion back to trains as Kookjock did, one needs to go back and read the statements issued by then Lionel CEO Dick Maddox. In explaining the move to complete overseas production, Maddox cited the need to be competitive. What Maddox was referring to was Lionel's inability to compete with MTH in particular (and K-Line) in respect to new product development. It can easily cost over $1M to bring a brand new scale diesel to market, and more than $2M for a steam engine. Mike Wolf publically stated that he had invested $57M in tooling over the course of a decade and that he had over $10M into the development of DCS. These are overseas figures... these costs would be substantially more with US development and making of the tools and dies.
I don't fault folks for wanting to see US made products. But with reference to the 3-rail train market, many want the best of both worlds, which isn't possible. The train companies cannot possibly issue the wealth of precise, scale detailed products in the variations they are in to the limited market that these products have, and still sell them at prices where people will purchase them. And even then, K-Line in part went under because people were NOT purchasing the products at prices K-Line needed. I recall for years many scale modelers saying "if MTH makes this, why can't Lionel?" Because Lionel was made stateside and MTH was made overseas, simple as that. Folks don't like hearing it, but tooling costs are heavily involved here.
I love the early nnon-scale MARX derived K-Line products which were also made stateside until 1991. Most love the later more scale detailed K-Line products. Well, K-Line couldn't have made those products had they remained stateside, at least not at the affordable price levels they had.
The recently posted article with Jerry Calabrese from the New Jersey newspaper accurately pointed out that there is a small core group of devoted 3-rail buyers, who are aging and currently still have the disposable income to buy these products. Many moan over the common postwar/MPC era practice of cobbing parts from one car or loco to make another, however inaccurate. Williams still does this to keep costs down, and many also complain about that.
The prices on current overseas train products still remain at their higher than actual production cost levels because of the need to have the capital to invest into new product development and tooling. If folks could accept Dash 8's or FP40's with sheet metal handrails and prototypically incorrect truck sides, it might be a different story. Gee, does anyone here recall the huge brehaha over the prototyical inaccuracies of the bargain basement priced K-Line KCC A-5 steamer the the fuel tank on the SD70? People rasied holy heck over an engine that costs $125!!!
At some point one could have aruged that if modelers were willing to be happy with less, the companies could have remained in the US. Just read the lengthy ridiculous impractical wish lists on the OGR forum... this will never happen., because so many in the 3-rail market are still NOT happy despite the wealth of choices we already have. So likewise will the train companies be back stateside anytime soon. I often want to make the suggestion to those who wish Lionel would make this prototypically totally correct oddball item (that can't possibly make a return)that they send Lionel a check for two-million dollars in advance upfront. Lionel will then later nofify of how much more they will need on top of that $2M to cover the acutal production run. then they can have exactly what they want... maybe.
And as a postscript, I don't know when Lionel started doing this, but I know as of 1991, Lionel sets were being at least partially made overseas. The casting on my 4-4-2 from this date says "made in Maccau" on the inside, despite the box proudly stating "Made in America." Lionel track, switches and cheaper accessories have long said "Made in Hong Kong." My first 027 switch track purchases in 1991 all said "Made in Hong Kong" as did the snap together bridge. I do know in 1996 Lionel announced all train sets were being made overseas, 4 years before the US plant closed down.
brianel, Agent 027
"Praise the Lord. I may not have everything I desire, but the Lord has come through for what I need."
Lionel's offshoring now means their prices are competitive with MTH's, the main reason they went offshore, as has been pointed out in detail and accurately by Jon Kooljock. These toys aren't cheap, never have been, but they're less expensive than they would have been had domestic manufacturing continued. There's absolutely no way round it, IMO, and for the consumer that's almost entirely good.
As far as protecting domestic manufacturing, domestic manufacturing as a percentage of gross domestic output has been decreasing for about a hundred years. Manufacturing is just a smaller and smaller part of the national total production as people want expensive services (health care, child care, nursing homes), expensive housing and other non-durable consumer "goods" and can afford more and more of them. Change is painful, but it has its upside, as one can tell when one calculates the percentage of the working public killed in industrial accidents each year (way down--coal mining and steel work are pretty dangerous compared with office work), the number of televisions in each home (way up), and the number of children dying of infectious diseases and cancer (way, way down). So we should count our blessings, even if the disruptions in some folks' lives have been unfortunate with all this change. Rant off ;).
traindaddy1 wrote:I've read your posts. Too deep for me! I think I'll just go "play" with my trains.
Celebrating 18 years on the CTT Forum.
Buckeye Riveter......... OTTS Charter Member, a Roseyville Raider and a member of the CTT Forum since 2004..
Jelloway Creek, OH - ELV 1,100 - Home of the Baltimore, Ohio & Wabash RR
TCA 09-64284
Interesting afternoon on this topic, I'm curious as to how the selective censorship policy works?
Jon
So many roads, so little time.
Buckeye Riveter wrote: traindaddy1 wrote:I've read your posts. Too deep for me! I think I'll just go "play" with my trains.
Blueberryhill RR wrote: Buckeye Riveter wrote: traindaddy1 wrote:I've read your posts. Too deep for me! I think I'll just go "play" with my trains.
csxt30 wrote: Blueberryhill RR wrote: Buckeye Riveter wrote: traindaddy1 wrote:I've read your posts. Too deep for me! I think I'll just go "play" with my trains.
ps: I have very strong opinions regarding off shore manufacturing, the state of US goods and I am a strong supporter of buying Made In The USA. With that said, nobody is changing their mind over what I or anyone else has to say on a train forum, and I have a layout to build in order to run my Made in The USA Post War trains and Made In The USA tubular track to ballast with Crushed In The USA granite ballast.
It's really as simple as this: If all the toy and model trains today were made in the U.S., the hobby would be a whole lot smaller than it already is. Pricing along would be so prohibitive that only a very few could be or would be involved in model railroading.
Given a choice, I would prefer to see consumer goods made right here in our own country by our own people, but those days are long gone and they will almost certainly never return. Folks in this country really need to learn to co-exist in a world economy, 'cause that's the bed we all made for ourselves.
Given a choice, I would prefer to see consumer goods made right here in our own country by our own people, but those days are long gone and they will almost certainly never return.
Both myself with Steeltoys and my friend and competitor at 100 Year Bridge Company insist on making our products right here. I put Made in USA on every box I ship and he has a sign on his York Display.. "Made with American Steel, in America, by Americans"
As the hobby becomes smaller, more specialized and more fragmented you will see more "Made in America" Companies popping up..
trigtrax wrote: Both myself with Steeltoys and my friend and competitor at 100 Year Bridge Company insist on making our products right here. I put Made in USA on every box I ship and he has a sign on his York Display.. "Made with American Steel, in America, by Americans"
I would definately by from the 100 Year Bridge Company. Not only do they proudly make their products on the USA, but they appear to be good folks who have an interest in promoting good will in the hobby.
One Word:
Global Economics. (ok, so that's two, I never said I was good at math)
Chinese economics is American economics is European economics is Middle Eastern economics. No longer can countries exist practicing isolationist economics.
Anyways, same old song and dance that we all already know.
So, for real discussion which is better tubular rail or modern factory ballasted track?
Kooljock1 wrote:Rather than get embroiled in politics, let us compare apples to apples from an operators' perspective. I take you back 13 years to the 1994 Lionel catalog, when almost everything was produced here in the United States. 6-18034 Santa Fe 2-8-2. #2046/#736 tooling, PullMor motor, RailSounds 1, no command, no cruise. Lighting consists of one headlight, and two marker "jewels". Magnetic coupler. MagneTraction.Price? $999.95Now let's compare a modern engine of comparable price 13 years later.6-11103 Southern PS-4 Steam Locomotive. New tooling. High torque Pittman CAN motor, TMCC, RailSounds 5.0, four chuffs per revolution, Odyssey Cruise, Dual FatBoy speakers, Wireless tether, seoarately applied whistle rod, whistle and bell chords, brakeman's stand, Walscharts valve gear, separately applied coal load, accurate builders plates, opening cab roof hatches, illuminated cab interior, hand painted dials gauges and handles, cab window glass, the list goes on...Price for all of this after 13 years of inflation? .04 cents more.Want to compare the 1994 2-8-2 by feature? The conventional B&O 2-8-2 from the last catalog comes close, both by size, details, and sound & operating features and retails for:$259.99Would you like another example?1994 6-16061 through 6-16065 Norfolk & Western "Baby Madison Cars". These have die-cast six wheel trucks and operating couplers, and retail for $69.95 a piece. Today? 6-25148 B&O "Baby Madison Cars", same tooling, same trucks, but with new detailed interiors and overhead lighting.$219.99 for a four car set. That works out to $54.75 per car...after 13 years of inflation.How 'bout powered units?1994 6-18419 Lionelville Electric Trolley. Postwar tooling, postwar motor, mechanical reverse. $119.95Today? 6-28415 Third Avenue Trolley. Newly added roof details, twin, sprung detailed trolley poles. Directional LED headlights, electronic reverse hidden in bumpers, smoother running motor.$69.99Starter sets are impossible to compare, as today's all have painted bodies(1994 were almost all molded in color!), almost all come with an 80 watt transformer (ALL came with 40 watts in 1994), and all today come with FasTrack (all in 1994 came with O-27).Some of you may say that you don't like today's modern features or are willing to trade those features for the "Made in the USA" label. I respect that. But I believe given today's competitive climate with MTH, AtlasO, Williams and others being made off-shore, Lionel would be dead if not for the move off-shore. I'm not happy about it, but I do appreciate the features, prices, and even QC of today's trains when compared to 1994!Jon
Intersting and compelling numbers. Now does anyone know how real US wages have trended in the same timeframe? I don't know, I'm asking.
ATSJer wrote: So, for real discussion which is better tubular rail or modern factory ballasted track?
why that would be post war tubular rail ballasted with the world's finest ballast products, of course - an effect no plastic faux ballast can match.
jakeoregano wrote:Intersting and compelling numbers. Now does anyone know how real US wages have trended in the same timeframe? I don't know, I'm asking.
There are quite a few studies about this covering roughly 1971 to the present. An internet search will turn them up, but the findings usually seem to create arguments between people.
Birds,
I know the data are out there, I just didn't feel like looking it up myself . I was sure someone here would have done it already. But you are right; whatever the numbers are they would definitely stir debate.
Frank53: I continue to be amazed by the detail on your layout. I love it. I particularly like the tubular track look myself too. That ballasting job is top notch. GREAT JOB!!
Cheers,
Dwayne
Dwayne,
I figured that. But who wants to volunteer to be the messanger that gets shot?
This is one of the hottest hot-button issues facing the USA in the long term. The one thing I can say with some sense of clarity is that the corporate world is doing pretty darn well while more and more middle class families here are struggling. If you have a good-paying job and lose it, chances are pretty good that you will work for less next time around. The middle class IS shrinking, dividing either up (a smaller number) or down (a larger number). I don't see how this can be good for America over time, but there seems to be little we can do about it given our present system. There is plenty of blame to go around, but one of the most interesting practical results is the break-up of old political ideologies (and parties) as folks re-sort themselves according to their newfound economic and social status.
I think we are in for a bumpy ride. We'll need our trains to calm us down even more in the future!
The middle class IS shrinking, dividing either up (a smaller number) or down (a larger number). I don't see how this can be good for America over time, but there seems to be little we can do about it given our present system.
I just saw a program on the Discovery Channel.. The prophet Ezekiel was preaching the evils of the same conditions in Judia around 70 BC. So now we not only have Politics but Religion as well..
HARRISBURG, Pa. -- The Hershey Co., whose name has been synonymous with U.S. candymaking for more than a century, is moving a bigger chunk of its production to Mexico.A day after Valentine sweethearts across the country enjoyed bags of Hershey Kisses, the company on Thursday announced a restructuring plan that will scale back its work force by 1,500 jobs and force some plants to close.
Hershey said the three-year blueprint would reduce the number of production lines by more than one-third while saving the company as much as $190 million a year.
The maker of Hershey's Kisses, Reese's peanut butter cups and Mounds bars currently employs about 13,000 people at 20 plants in the United States, Canada, Mexico and Brazil. The planned cuts amount to 11.5 percent of that work force.The proportion of Hershey's manufacturing done in the U.S. and Canada will shrink, from 90 percent currently to 80 percent, and the impact will vary from one plant to another."Some will be expanded, some will be downsized and some will close," said Hershey spokesman Kirk Saville. He declined to elaborate."We recognize this will involve considerable change over the next three years, and intend to make this transformation of our supply chain as smooth as possible for our employees and customers," said Richard H. Lenny, Hershey's president, chairman and CEO.A union leader suggested that the planned new plant in Monterrey, Mexico, would make the job cuts in the United States and Canada particularly acute.Dennis Bomberger, business manager for Chocolate Workers Local 464, which represents 2,500 workers at Hershey plants in Hershey and Reading, speculated that the actual job cuts could have to be deeper to achieve a net work force reduction of 1,500."They're going to gain some jobs in Mexico ... so there's going to be a higher number lost" in the U.S. and Canada, Bomberger said. "Whenever they move something out the country, that's not good news for any company from the workers' standpoint."Saville declined to discuss any details about the job cuts or the Mexico plant. Hershey managers began holding meetings with employees Thursday to discuss the changes ahead."We will communicate with our employees and (their) union representatives," he said.Hershey's stock rose 1.6 percent Thursday on the New York Stock Exchange, to close at $52.10, up 80 cents.Hershey, the nation's largest candy maker, reported a 10 percent drop in fourth-quarter earnings last month on lackluster sales. Results lagged due to weak merchandising, the company said, as well as a recall of products made at a plant in Canada last year after salmonella bacteria was discovered.Reaction to Thursday's announcement among financial analysts was mixed."Bottom-line, this plan should provide (Hershey) with far more marketing firepower, behind which to invest in its core brands ... as well as new platforms," such as premium chocolate and dark chocolate, "while still delivering margin improvement," wrote Andrew Lazar of Lehman Brothers.Wachovia Securities analyst Jonathan P. Feeney said the plan leaves fundamental problems unaddressed."We are skeptical that pulling capacity out of the system while allocating capital away from the core business accomplishes the critical mission, which is to reinvigorate consumer response to its core chocolate products," Feeney wrote.The company said it will outsource production of low value-added items and that the new Mexico plant would help meet growing demand for its products in that country."The long-term benefits will include a significant, sustainable increase in investment behind Hershey's iconic brands and new product innovation, as well as targeted, profitable international expansion," said Chief Operating Officer David J. West.Hershey reaffirmed its long-term target for sales growth of 3 percent to 4 percent.
"Hershey's stock rose 1.6 percent Thursday on the New York Stock Exchange, to close at $52.10, up 80 cents."
It always amazes me when companies announce plans to dump employees, the stock price goes up...
Anyway, I've been laid off twice, and both times it took me a while to get back on my feet. The last layoff caused me to uproot my family and move to a new state. I can relate to how these people are gonna feel when it happens.
"Intersting and compelling numbers. Now does anyone know how real US wages have trended in the same timeframe? I don't know, I'm asking. "
Well speaking for myself my wages as an electrician have more then doubled since 1994.
After our house fire we bought alot of stuff in a short time frame and it struck me then that alot of the stuff that I bought was cheaper not then years ago for the stuff I replaced. This was true for anything electronic, TVs, VCRs, DVDs, Karokee machine, Ect. My new american made furniture was cheaper as well and seems to be higher quiality.
Inflation has seemed to hit some products harder then other and these things seem to be basic items that people need. Clothing seems to cost more, food items have most definitly gone up and Automobiles although there is alot more to a car today then 10 plus years ago.
John
Our community is FREE to join. To participate you must either login or register for an account.
Get the Classic Toy Trains newsletter delivered to your inbox twice a month