Variations of Lionel Track

[Anonymous]

Hello all,

I'm returning to the hobby after quite a few years, and moving from HO to 3-rail O.  I recently purchased a mixed lot of Lionel track for a few bucks.  About 100 pieces in all, some O-guage, but most O-27.  As I was cleaning it (it was a rusting disaster), I noticed a few distinct types of "ties."  Some unpainted metal with "Lionel" stamped on it, some dark (I think from tarnish) without Lionel stamped on it, and some painted brown.  Now, I recognize the brown painted ties as post-war Lionel O-27.  I do not recognize the other variations.  The pins also have variations, so I'm guessing some are pre-war, and some are post-war.

I've searched the forums, but yikes, there's a ton of information out there and I'm not sure what I should be searching FOR.  Anyway, if anyone has a clue how to indentify the different variations of Lionel track, or at least tell me where to go () I sure would appreciate it.

Thanks!

[lionelsoni]

You may have Marx in there too.  Marx rails typically have a knurled pattern on the rail web; and the flanges are folded in the opposite direction from Lionel.  (I forget which way each is; and I don't have any here to look at.)

The pins are also quite different.  Lionel pins have a wide groove at each end for the crimp that holds them in the rail.  Marx pins have the tiniest groove, at one end only.

[Anonymous]

Thanks!

I hadn't considered Marx track.  But it was a "mixed-bag," so anything is possible.  I'm able to salvage most, only losing a couple of bent-beyond-repair pieces.  I recognize Lionel pins, so the pins I haven't seen before could very well be Marx.

[Dave Farquhar]

A lot of people mixed Marx and Lionel O27 track in the '50s--Marx track was cheaper and may have been more readily available since Marx sold through Woolworth's and other dime stores. In the early postwar period Lionel was definitely doing black-tied track, sometimes with and without the Lionel stamping. The holes are cut cleaner on Lionel than on Marx too. So if you look at the underside of the ties and see a clean hole, it's Lionel. If there are some small barbs protroding down, it's Marx. Pins are another identifier, but it's also possible those were changed by some past owner for whatever reason.

[phillyreading]

Don't forget about Ives track, they were a competitor in the 1930's or 40's with Lionel and has trac similar to Lionel, track size may differ in length from Lionel but mates pretty well to Lionel's O gauge track.  Could even be pre war American Flyer track as they did O gauge before WW-2.

Lee F.

[lionelsoni]

Lionel rail flanges are folded up; Marx were folded down.

Ives track is supposed to be the source of Lionel's O27.  (Lionel branded their O27 track clips "Ives" long after Ives otherwise disappeared.)  I have never seen an example of genuine Ives track; but I wonder how closely it resembles the Lionel track.

I have a bunch of prewar Flyer O31-profile track.  It differs from Lionel in having a larger radius.  (It is something like O42.)  It also has the mounting holes punched in the ends of the ties rather than between the rails.  And the track pins look like common nails, with sharp points and no grooves showing.

[phillyreading]

I had a couple of straight tracks that were stamped Ives and had silver ties and the track pins looked like nails with the heads cut off and points on both ends of the pin, the track was about an inch or so shorter than Lionel's tubular track, maybe 8.50 inches instead of 10 inches.

Lee F.

[Anonymous]

Outstanding information, thanks!

I looked again last night.  All the flanges are down.  The unpainted ones stamped Lionel are nearly identical to the unstamped ones, except the Lionel stamped ones have one hole and the unstamped have 2 holes.  Holes all look like clean, good punches.  Most of the pins are Lionel, but there are a few that are basically torpedo shaped without the defined ridge Lionel has.  And the ends aren't tapered like Lionel, just rounded.  Since this is track from who-knows-where, it could be any and all of the previously mentioned track.  Since it all works for my purpose, I'm not concerned.  Except I intend to sell what I don't need (all the curves for example) and I was wondering what exactly I would be selling.    And if I had any authentic pre-war Lionel track, I'd keep it for my other pre-war layout.  Hard to tell what I have at this point.  But it sure shined up well!

Thanks for all the help!  I'm sure I'll be back with lots more as the hi-rail starts taking shape.

[Anonymous]

Outstanding information, thanks!

I looked again last night.  All the flanges are down.  The unpainted ones stamped Lionel are nearly identical to the unstamped ones, except the Lionel stamped ones have one hole and the unstamped have 2 holes.  Holes all look like clean, good punches.  Most of the pins are Lionel, but there are a few that are basically torpedo shaped without the defined ridge Lionel has.  And the ends aren't tapered like Lionel, just rounded.  Since this is track from who-knows-where, it could be any and all of the previously mentioned track.  Since it all works for my purpose, I'm not concerned.  Except I intend to sell what I don't need (all the curves for example) and I was wondering what exactly I would be selling.    And if I had any authentic pre-war Lionel track, I'd keep it for my other pre-war layout.  Hard to tell what I have at this point.  But it sure shined up well!

Thanks for all the help!  I'm sure I'll be back with lots more as the hi-rail starts taking shape.

[Dave Farquhar]

I have some of that prewar AF track. I found out much to my chagrin that I didn't have enough to make a full circle. It's roughly 40 inches in diameter, and 12 pieces to a circle just like O42. If you were ever in the situation where O42 track won't quite fit somewhere, this stuff would be nice to try. The other nice thing about it was that two of the pins are on one end of a track section, and the third pin is on the other. So if you want to make an S curve, you only have to move one pin instead of three.

I also have a few pieces of AF O27 track. It's a nice curiosity, because it's the same profile as O31 track, but when you hold a piece of modern O27 track up against it, you see it's exactly the same geometry.

[trigtrax]

I have 3 types of O-27 track, plated black ties, coated silver ties and wood grained lithographed brown ties. I believe all were Lionel but I don't know the history. Old Marx track I have has both longer straights with more ties and wider curves. It plugs right into Lionel O-27 track.

[lionelsoni]

That Marx with 5 ties per section is O34; but they also made O27.

[palallin]

Some O27-length (8 7/8") Marx straights also have 5 ties.  I don't know if that variation reflects date of manufacture or some other variable.

[Dave Farquhar]

Sometimes Marx shipped sets with O34 curves and shorter 8.75" straights instead of the 11-inch straights. Those shorter straights had 5 ties so they would be a better match for the O34 curves than the regular 3-tie straights. They're a lot less common but I don't know if anyone other than set collectors care.

[prewardude]

I have 3 types of O-27 track, plated black ties, coated silver ties and wood grained lithographed brown ties...

If memory serves, the lithographed wood-grain ties wood be MPC-era Lionel from the early-mid '70s.

 - Clint 

[trigtrax]

I have 3 types of O-27 track, plated black ties, coated silver ties and wood grained lithographed brown ties...

If memory serves, the lithographed wood-grain ties wood be MPC-era Lionel from the early-mid '70s.

 - Clint 

You're probably right. I've been acquiring track since I got my first set in 1949. Lionel, Marx, K-line..I was never selective.. I'd stick any two pieces together. The only thing about track that ever bugged me was when Lionel switched from the original metal Trestle fasteners to that plastic junk.. On my original set there were two types of clips. O-27 was a long shaped bar that linked two ties and O-Gauge was a square piece that hooked the upturned flanges of two ties.The same screws and flange nuts were used for each. Cool stuff! 

[Anonymous]

BTW Dave,

I did find some track as you described with the small barbs in the holes in the ties.  No Lionel stamp, so using my best CSI skills, I'm guessing Marx.  Quite a mix in that little box.  As soon as I figure out how to post pictures, I'll post before-and-after restoration pics.  Anyone ever use Evapo-Rust?  Holy cow! 

[Dave Farquhar]

I did a Google search and Evapo-Rust sounds like really good stuff. Of course I have a few things I could try it on. I assume you're happy with it?

[Anonymous]

I was highly skeptical.  I mean, come on, something that "evaporates" rust that isn't a reducing agent, acid or base?  And to be honest, it doesn't exactly evaporate it.  But somehow, it breaks the bond between the rust and the metal.  Let is soak for 20 minutes to a few hours (depending on the amount/thickness of the rust) and then rinse it off (or a quick pass with a dremel wire brush wheel).  Yup, I'm impressed so far.  However at $22/gallon (plus shipping), it's not for the faint of heart.  So far, I've used about a pint and have cleaned a lot of track that would otherwise need to be tossed out.

Maybe they'll give me a discount for being a commercial for them.