MTH keeping up with Lionel

[dbaker48]

Looks like MTH is keeping up with Lionel.  According to their website today the AC4400cw from the 2006 catalog is now rescheduled to April.    Coincidence ?  

[trigtrax]

I think very few hobbyists are actually aware of how small the O-Gauge market really is. We constantly hear about delays and cancellations, partial shipments and a number of other problems and most usually assign some sinister reason to each. Think about this, a factory that makes Bic Cigarette lighters turns out about 3 million units each day. In most manufacturing a short run is considered less than 100,000 parts. The total Acela production was announced at 2000 sets and Third Rail sometimes lists only 50 pieces or less as the total production for a specific engine. The O-Gauge market is heading toward a collective of cottage industries, As it is now you can almost consider all product "Custom Built" So it's not unreasonable for any product to be delayed.

[ChiefEagles]

no, they passed Lionel years ago.  Took two years to get a NS diesel.  When I got it, it was an old version and they were selling a new version of the same engine with the updated graphis.  I sold it immediately and swore never to buy another engine from MTH.

[dbaker48]

Trig..

Not to be argumentative, and I can live with the delay.  However, I don't really subscribe to the "cottage industry", and small volume scenerios.  As spending over 15 years as a Director of Program Management and responsible for New Product Introductions for a significant computer company, there really is NOT an acceptable explanation for the continued delays and reschedules.

There are many "tools" available to manage the development and production of these products.  Gnatt charts, Pert/CPM, Milestone Software,  on and on.  The biggest issue and cause, I believe, is an aggressive Marketing Plan.  Their are too many scenerios set up.

- Announce a product, see what kind of response we get.  (The only issue here is getting camera ready prototypes done for a catalog.)

- How is it received?  Evidenced by some of the products being "cancelled", I would bet that once a predetermined quantity of pre-orders are received, then the next steps are authorized.

- Product build, How many "NEW" parts are required?  For the most part maybe the body mold, and a couple of trim pieces.  And even then for short volume runs, aluminum tooling can be easily developed in a matter of days.   The documentation is probably the "critical path", and even that can be short circuited, via cut and paste.

I would venture the single longest activity is the transportation, or maybe the packaging development.

Occassionally the development of a NEW control system, such as Legacy can create and additional degree of difficulty and complexity.  But, that too can be managed. 

Maybe I should start another Train Company.    LOL 

 

[Joe Hohmann]

I think the main problem for these companies is overseas production. Even Ready Made Toys (RTM), what may be close to a "cottage industry", was suppose to have Beefs and Peeps by Oct. 06, then it was Jan. 07, and still waiting. I don't think people "pre-ordered" in the "Good Old Days", plus the catalogs were filled with less stuff. But even the Lionel 1946 catalog showed some items not made, like a 4-6-4 steamer. Joe

[Buckeye Riveter]

  The biggest issue and cause, I believe, is an aggressive Marketing Plan.  Their are too many scenarios set up.

 

[Anonymous]

"I think the main problem for these companies is overseas production. Even Ready Made Toys (RTM), what may be close to a "cottage industry", was suppose to have Beefs and Peeps by Oct. 06, then it was Jan. 07, and still waiting."

-------------------------

In large measure, that's probably true.  When a manufacturer decides to produce a given model, he generally sends the specs to the plant that will be making it and then waits for a pre-production sample to arrive.  He goes over that sample with a fine-tooth comb, and notes any corrections/changes/improvements that need to be made.  The model then goes back to the plant and those changes are (supposedly) made.  If a second or subsequent pre-production model is requested, another examination is made to see if, in fact, the changes indicated earlier have been made (properly).

Meanwhile, these back-and-forth corrections may result in changes in the production schedules previously established for the manufacturing plant, which generally serves a good number of other firms (and perhaps even for products other than toy trains).  Once your own product slips in that schedule, it gets bounced and goes to the back of the line.  A good analogy is the printing industry, which operates in the same way to keep the plant operation up to speed on a full schedule--there's nothing worse than down time or an idle assembly line. 

I, too, was surprised and a bit disappointed when the RMT BEEF's. for example, slipped so far in their production schedule.  They were originally supposed to ship in late fall, and I had planned on a B&O set for my Christmas layout.  Preordered thwm, even, and I'm one who preaches loud and long against preordering.  Well, those Christmas layout plans fell through, as presumably did a "first part of the year" revised shipping date.  I assume that RMT found some things that weren't up to spec with the BEEFs and had to ultimately go to the back of the line, as described above.  I'm sure the firm is not happy about having missed the holiday season, but it's certainly better to get things right than it is to give the go-ahead when there are possible issues with the product.

People in this hobby really do need to learn to exercise a bit of patience these days, and at the same time the various manufacturers need to stop promising delivery dates that they may not be able to meet.  At the very least, they could announce "Spring 2007 delivery" or "delivery first quarter of 2007" instead of the too-specific  "March delivery," or some such.

[ChiefEagles]

We are talking about moving our electronics to India.  The Chinese are hard headed.   Send then corrections to something they did wrong and they ignore you.  Might be the problem with both companies.

[dbaker48]

I have transferred a complete production line to Korea from So. Cal..  The way "most" companies accomplish this is the parent company rides heard on every aspect, even the tooling being developed locally.  An Engineering staff is typically on site as well.  The processess are all well defined and established, I am certain there is NOT a labor shortage.  The usual delay is initial start-up.  Then it is GO.

I really believe that Lionel has some software issues, that are probably migrating over to some firmware issues.  Or, they are really trying to get it resonably "bug proof", you only get 1 chance for a good first impression.  And they have a lot riding on that new system.

I think MTH issue is most likely numbers, getting enough quantity committed then allocating that product to the production time and material they have available.

Doesn't matter really, they are only toy trains.  I think the people that are hurt the worst is the distribution channel, LHS, etc..

 

 

[3railguy]

Looks like MTH is keeping up with Lionel.  According to their website today the AC4400cw from the 2006 catalog is now rescheduled to April.    Coincidence ?  

I thought you didn't like train bashing on this forum. Especially MTH verses Lionel.

[dbaker48]

Looks like MTH is keeping up with Lionel.  According to their website today the AC4400cw from the 2006 catalog is now rescheduled to April.    Coincidence ?  

I thought you didn't like train bashing on this forum. Especially MTH verses Lionel.

 

I don't mean to sound like I'm train bashing, really.  I am very much looking forward to the receipt of both my MTH 4400's and the Big Boy with the Leagacy system.  Unfortunately, I think our society has driven a change in the manner of how business is practiced.  We have raised the "bar" with OUR requirement for more features, higher quality, and better value.  Not bad!  The manufacturers are forced to work smarter and more efficient.  Not building an abundance of product that may have to be "sacraficed" at clearance sales.  And, not letting a product out before it is completely ready.  At the same time they are trying to keep a competitive edge.  Tough road!!!  What we see is an aggressive marketing schedule that is more conjecture than reality.  So who is to blame?  I don't know.  I do know that next year at  this time I will be extremely appreciative for the engines that I will have, and certainly forgotten all about the unexpected delay.

Overall, I feel we ultimately are the winners.  Considering the quality of the products and features that become available.  

And also look at all this fodder that has been able to be created in the interium.  So as they say if you don't have anythng important to say, Shut UP.  So I will take full advantage of my own words. 

[pbjwilson]

I dont know. Somehow I think the factory in China that is putting out all these trains is next door to a factory making basketballs or Nike shoes. And the work force is rotating every other day. You make everything in China and you know what, sooner or later these people start not caring about what they are doing. When the revolution comes my friend, we are all going to pay. Target and Wallymart will see the you know what hit the fan. Wake up America, there is no free ride. Bring manufacturing back to the States. Lets all start paying retail for our goods. I'm sick of discounters, add on sales, "are you a helpful hardware member", "do you have a grocery guru card". Screw you American merchandising freakwad! Give me the tried and true. Give me a good product at an honest price. Stop the discounting. I'm tired of everyone trying to sell me stuff I dont want. I was much happier 40 years ago when stuff was made in America by Americans. Stick it to the Man. Power to the people, baby.

[njalb1]

Looks like MTH is keeping up with Lionel.  According to their website today the AC4400cw from the 2006 catalog is now rescheduled to April.    Coincidence ?  

I thought you didn't like train bashing on this forum. Especially MTH verses Lionel.

 I also thought the same thing earlier today ! Usually I get drawn into a debate of sorts

On to other news I read tonight that Hershey Chocolate is laying off some American workers and moving some of its production to Mexico !!!

  If this happens I will boycott Hershey

[laz 57]

I dont know. Somehow I think the factory in China that is putting out all these trains is next door to a factory making basketballs or Nike shoes. And the work force is rotating every other day. You make everything in China and you know what, sooner or later these people start not caring about what they are doing. When the revolution comes my friend, we are all going to pay. Target and Wallymart will see the you know what hit the fan. Wake up America, there is no free ride. Bring manufacturing back to the States. Lets all start paying retail for our goods. I'm sick of discounters, add on sales, "are you a helpful hardware member", "do you have a grocery guru card". Screw you American merchandising freakwad! Give me the tried and true. Give me a good product at an honest price. Stop the discounting. I'm tired of everyone trying to sell me stuff I dont want. I was much happier 40 years ago when stuff was made in America by Americans. Stick it to the Man. Power to the people, baby.

 

WELL SAID PAUL,  I think if Lionel and MTH were to hire lots of retired GIZ to build trains for them lots better stuff would be seen coming our way.  Because UZ GIZ knowz if its right or wrong.

laz57

[trigtrax]

Product build, How many "NEW" parts are required?  For the most part maybe the body mold, and a couple of trim pieces.

Just to put this in perspective I've copied a post from another forum. This attention to prototypical detail is what train manufacturers are up against.

****************************************************

SP&S was owned jointly by the GN and the NP and engine orders were sometimes combined.

In 1936 Northern Pacific ordered 21 new class Z-6 Challengers from ALCO, Nos. 5100 - 5120. They were all coal burners.

SP&S ordered 6 Z-6's as part of that NP order from ALCO except they were all oil burners.  

Just before WWII, NP ordered slightly bigger class Z-7 Challengers, Nos. 5121 - 5126, which were also coal burners.  

In 1943, NP ordered still more Challengers, class Z-8. The Z-8's [Nos. 5130 - 5149] were the same as the Z-7 except they were oil burners.  

SPS sold two of their Z-6 oil burners to GN [Nos 903 & 904]. GN numbered them 4000 & 4001. Then in 1950, GN sold them back to SP&S, who kept the GN numbers to the end of steam.  

To answer your question about the Z-6's on the three railroads:

The SP&S and GN engines were identical except for paint and lettering.

The NP Z-6s were almost identical EXCEPT they had a coal tender.

****************************************************

As you know Atlas recently put out it's first Diecast Steamers, but the plans for these trains are several years old. From conversations with Maddox ( formerly of Atlas) the diecasting molds cost in the neighborhood of $250,000. Atlas has a customer base that demands more prototypical accuracy than other manufacturers. For economic reasons the decision to produce these engines was a long time in coming. In the post was period Lionel had a few steamer body types and just ran different numbers. Today it's a different game entirely.

[Joe Hohmann]

 

I, too, was surprised and a bit disappointed when the RMT BEEF's. for example, slipped so far in their production schedule.  They were originally supposed to ship in late fall, and I had planned on a B&O set for my Christmas layout.  Preordered thwm, even, and I'm one who preaches loud and long against preordering.  Well, those Christmas layout plans fell through,

 

Exact same here ( my first and only preorder, B&O, Christmas). Walter told me at York that they had some kinks to work out after looking at the samples. Joe

[brianel027]

There are some interesting points here. Certainly developmental/tooling/quality issues can delay product releases. As can money, as for example with K-Line. As we have read, when K-Line had problems with cash flow, Sanda Kan started insisting on pre-payment for production runs, development costs etc. Obviously SK let K-Line slide for sometime inorder for K-Line to build up the massive million dollar debt they had with SK. So there's also the possibility that cash flow could be causing a delay with the MTH products too. And Lionel for that matter. Both companies are still spending money on legal costs pending the final, final resolution of their legal differences.

TrigTrax brings up an excellent point too, in that a portion of the market has gotten very demanding. Take the last K-Line KCC loco, I think it was a SD 90MAC. There was quite a backlash over the incorrect fuel tank on that model, which I thought was a little uncalled for given the bargain basement price of that loco. I mean, you don't get a Rolls Royce for the price of a Plymouth Neon. Same goes for the backlash brew-ha-ha over the KCC A5 steamer, which was also bargain priced. Yet even at these low price points, some modelers insisted they be absolutely accurate. Complete accuracy costs money (no matter where the products are made), which I think many modelers conveniently forget.

[ChiefEagles]

I know we would have to pay more but why not made in the USA?  I think the quality would be better.   I got a batch [7] MTH Realtrax switches.  Half were excellent quality, half were bad and had to be worked on.  [I'm sure Lionel is having the same problem so I am not bashing MTH]  I notice that it all items.  Jeans [mine were always made in NC] is an example.  Moved to Mexico or somewhere and now they come with all grades of defects or a hole will come in them in a short period if time.  They use to last for years.  Its the "Walmarts" of the country that have caused this.  Lower prices have forced companies to go for lower labor costs but = lower quality.  If WWII would happen now, we would be hurting.  We manufacture nothing.  Back then we were a manufacturing giant.  Maybe someone needs to block the seas and airways and make us go back to work.

[palallin]

Jeans [mine were always made in NC] is an example.  Moved to Mexico or somewhere and now they come with all grades of defects or a hole will come in them in a short period if time.  They use to last for years. 

 

That's not shoddy work:  it's fashion.  People pay high dollar for jeans off the rack that I wouldn't even wear to change the oil in, and I'm not a neat freak!