I'm starting my first set up for my son and I. We plan on going O gauge with Atlas O track. I have the luxury of starting from scratch and reading all of the great info from everyone to help on decisions for planning the layout and other things. This is going to be something I want to grow extensively for the years to come because I have a good size unfinished dungeon of a basement that is only used to collect junk. The main question is, are there any issues of using one brand of controller and not being able to use all of the options another brand has on their locos and rolling stock? I'm sure this question has been pondered many times. If anyone can direct me to a thread concerning this I'd be greatful.
Thanks,
PAZAMM
Pazamm,
You will read many opinions on which system is better, which has better sounds, better low speed control, better conventional control, etc. In the end, it is more a matter of what you like. Since you are just getting underway, I hope I can stear you in what I believe to be the right direction. First, I am wiring my layout in a pattern/method that is recommended for DCS (MTH's control system). This is called the "Star method" by which you have your feeders go in tandem sets for power and common to the track blocks This helps with the DCS signal.
Now, just about all my trains are conventional, and from what I have read, Lionel's system (TMCC) is better for conventional and is easier to hook up. I am doing this method so that later, down the road if I want to add DCS, the layout is prewired for it and it is a matter of adding the components. I do not intend to add the DCS, but I have that option. Several folks here have done both without trouble, so it is easily done and they can help you with that.
I would recommend that you get Neil B's book on command control from Kalmback (the owners of CTT and this web site). The book gives a good idea of the benefits to each system and explains how to wire for that system. It is inexpensive and well worth the price. Also, I recently purchased the TM video called Building your O Gauge Layout, that has most of the needed information for everything from wiring and benchwork, to scenery, etc.
Lastly, Welcome to this wonderful forum.
Dennis
TCA#09-63805
Pazaam,
The basics of Command Control are not easy but Lionel's TMCC system is used by more companies than MTH's DCS or PS-2 system & DCS only works with MTH stuff. Some people say that TMCC is less expensive than DCS, my comment is that DCS cost me $280.00 plus $90.00 for the AIU for accessories. TMCC may run some of the DCS/PS-2 features but not all so you will need both systems if you buy both MTH DCS and Lionel TMCC.
Far as Atlas track goes you may want to stear in the direction of TMCC, even Atlas trains come with TMCC.
Don't know how TMCC controls accessories and switches.
You would be wise to do some foot work and see what each system can or can not do.
Lee F.
Pazamm -
You have come to a great place. I'm a newbie myself and get a lot of great advice here. One place to check on threads for How To's is the first thread on the main page. Also, use of the search function at the bottom of the page is a big help.
Lisa
PS - noticed that your "joined" date is 2/14 --it's the 13th here - wondering where you are from?
Six or seven years ago, (maybe even 8) I had the same question, so I visited two train shops, TAS and Davis, both in Ohio and asked them to explain to me TMCC. They did a great job and I bought TMCC. Why didn't they show me MTH's DCS system? Because it had not hit the market at that time.
TMCC will run switches, accessories, lights, sounds, track power, etc. At least it works on my layout. I use the CAB-1 to turn on and off the "fire" in the switch tower and the music on the Hobo Water Tower. The farm sounds are tuned on/off from the CAB-1. Switches are switched, too. I use three SC-2 TMCC controllers to run everything.
I have had the chance to run the MTH system and it is a great system. I started with TMCC and everything seems working great, so why would I.........................................
Most importantly, have fun.
Celebrating 18 years on the CTT Forum.
Buckeye Riveter......... OTTS Charter Member, a Roseyville Raider and a member of the CTT Forum since 2004..
Jelloway Creek, OH - ELV 1,100 - Home of the Baltimore, Ohio & Wabash RR
TCA 09-64284
Ah, but his profile says "Member since 2007/02/13". So he's been a member since before he joined!
I think something is messed up in the forum software.
Bob Nelson
Buckeye Riveter,
Do you need to buy any additional control units or boxes besides just the Cab-1 Base to operate switches and accessories?
Thanks for the info everybody. It does seem I've stumbled on a great page. I'm getting great info from everywhere. I am writing from today 2-13-07 @ 3:00 pm central time from a southwest Chicago suburb. No worm holes here that distort the space - time continum that I'm aware of. By the way, the weather is great. 30 mph winds and 6" of snow.
I am thinking of getting a Lionel starter set and improving on that later with the Atlas track. I so great now days to learn from other peoples mistakes and discoveries. Now I don't have to waste time & money
Thanks again, I'm constantly reading now.
pazamm,There are a number of questions that need to be answered...Do you intend to only run command control engines? If so from which manufacturer? If both, then you will need a DCS system AND a TMCC system. Lionel is also coming out with TMCC II later this year, so that complicates matters a bit more. I would recommend purchasing one system, and then if you decide to purchase engines from another manufacturer purchase the other system, and run each on seperate lines that DO NOT cross. That way you can have fun with both systems. If you are going TMCC then I would recommend waiting till TMCC II is released later this year.I have all Lionel engines and accessories so I went with TMCC, and wish I had waited for TMCC II, I will be getting the TMCC II system when it is released and using that on my main layout, I will also be getting a DCS system and installing that on a seperate main line. That way I can use PS2 engines on one line and TMCC & TMCCII engines on the other line. I will also be able to intermix the Lionel and MTH accessories since I will have both systems.Now the question still remains if TMCC II and DCS can be used on the same track at the same time or seperately (PS2 engine crosses over to Track 1 and remains under PS2 control, TMCCI/II engine crosses from Track 1 to Track 2 and remains under TMCC II control). I think this will be possible but only if you use DPDT switches to control the blocks and what transformer the blocks are receiving their power from. The key would be to NOT cross an engine from the TMCC block to the DCS block...
I hope that wasn't too confusing?Brent
Hey Buckeye
I need to buy everything! Seriously, I am in the beginning phase and doing as much homework as I can. I'm going to start small with a 4X8 sheet, and I read the post on the Homasote and I'm very intrigued. I will be checking that out.
pazamm wrote: Thanks for the info everybody. It does seem I've stumbled on a great page. I'm getting great info from everywhere. I am writing from today 2-13-07 @ 3:00 pm central time from a southwest Chicago suburb. No worm holes here that distort the space - time continum that I'm aware of. By the way, the weather is great. 30 mph winds and 6" of snow. I am thinking of getting a Lionel starter set and improving on that later with the Atlas track. I so great now days to learn from other peoples mistakes and discoveries. Now I don't have to waste time & money Thanks again, I'm constantly reading now.PAZAMM
Pazamm,Personnally I would steer AWAY from a starter set. I would recommend one of the Lionel Legacy sets (I know they are pricey but you can't beat their components and expandability). Where you would THINK the transformers that ship with these sets would be DCS (MTH Starter) compatible, or TMCC (Lionel Starter) compatible, they are NOT.That is why I recommend the Legacy Empire Sets, they come with the Legacy controller, ZW transformer, track (with O-72 switches), and nice engines and rolling stock.
Brent
This is not advice...just "my story". My layout is only 5x8, 2 loops/2 trains. I saw no real advantage to having a "remote" system...except that it frustrated me to have my passenger cars lights dim when the train was going slow, or off, when stopped and not in "neutral" (my passenger cars contain over 100 figures that I hand-painted). I decided to go with TMCC since Lionel had made a semi-scale PRR K4 and GG1 that I wanted to run. The one-wire hook-up to my 2 CW80's took about 5 minutes. To my surprise, I'm now running my trains far more now than I ever did. Better yet, my 2 1/2 year-old Grandson can run them as well, since the Cab1 controller is very simple/basic.
Some of my friends, who have VERY large layouts, run both systems. Although I personally feel that TMCC is more "simple", I do like the DCS controller "thumb wheel" better than the TMCC "red wheel". I just had a Williams scale brass engine converted to TMCC so I could run in on my modular groups layout at shows. At present, we are 100% TMCC, but would like to be set up with both in the future. I think the problem has to do with a effective range of DCS being about 70', and our modular layout can reach 100' long. By the way, ours will be the layout operating at York in April '08. Joe
phillyreading wrote: Buckeye Riveter,Do you need to buy any additional control units or boxes besides just the Cab-1 Base to operate switches and accessories?Lee F.
Yes, I use three SC-2s to run the switches and accessories on my layout.
God bless TCA 05-58541 Benefactor Member of the NRA, Member of the American Legion, Retired Boss Hog of Roseyville , KC&D Qualified
.
Since you say that you are "just starting out", with no previous model railroading equipment to incorporate into your layout, you may want to postphone any major purchases until you have a chance to test Lionel's new Legacy train command system.
It will be necessary to use their new system to access the advanced Legacy features in their current catalog, and those that will be introduced for many years to come.
The current timetable for Legacy's release (according to Lionel's shipping schedule) is this coming April. However, it may be a month or two after that, when most of the reviews regarding the pros and cons of this new system are published in the trade magazines and discussed on the train forums.
Also, while the Atlas track system is widely used, their switches have been problematic.
Lionel's Fastrack system seems to be favored by both oldtimers and newbies, in the hobby.
Welcome to the hobby of model railroading!! It's loads of fun (and work, too!!)
..
Thanks for all the advice. I've been thinking of going with the Lionel set up due to the easy availability so I'll stick to that. Adding a different loop for a different maker would not be an issue down the line.
Thanks again,
Pazamm
No need for separate loops. These running on separte loops but at that time the same side of one ZW. So, they were operating on the same power.
The NS is DCS PS2 and the B&O is Atlas running on TMCC.
Thank you Buckeye Riveter for the information about TMCC as I am sure that others can also use this info.
Chief Eagles, is the cost for TMCC the same as DCS or less money to get into?
PZAMM--
Go slow, very slow.
I would encourage you to visit at least 4 private layouts that use both systems and actually run some trains. Most train folks are more than happy to open their layouts to those just getting started or who have been in the hobby for years. I'm serious, take advantage of other's opinions and then use that knowledge to build your empire.
I waited for DCS to come out and I haven't been sorry. With that said, I run mostly PS2 engines and a few Lionel steamers, it will run both. I am now waiting for TMCC II to come out and I will add that because there are several Lionel loco's that I want to add in the future.
I consider myself "old school" for most things but I can't imagine not using a remote to run my trains, I love it. I can walk all over the trainroom and visit with friends and be in complete control.......... most of the time
Think carefully about your track selection. I'm at the point of no return with my MTH Realtrax, it just kind of took over. If I could do anything over I would use Gargraves. However, none of my visitors have ever said "your layout would sure look better with XYZ track". Maybe they are just being nice but 99% of the people who visit our train room are not train hobbyists and they think everything is cool just the way it is.
Lastly, here is a shameless link of our layout. Most of the folks here have seen it already but I still like to show it off!
Have fun & GO SLOW
Jon
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-7113039967492295449&pr=goog-sl
So many roads, so little time.
JON,
Great video and great music, weel done.
laz57
Lee, in reading the Command Control book by Neil B., and also by reviewing the catalogs/magazine adds, they are pretty close in price. Lionel's TMCC is cheaper for the start up, but everything added is more $$$. DCS has much of what is needed and it is less cost for additions. That said, DCS is proprietary and so all future purchases are the higher $$ of MTH, whereas, TMCC is shared and so Atlas, Lionel, etc., make engines that are command and you can find a better variety in command.
Now, as mentioned from above, I have not purchased the caponents for my Command System as of yet and only have a few pieces that are TMCC equipped. So, the information I state is purely from an observational/read it in a book, etc. There has been some speculation that the Legacy information was to be proprietary, but I do not know. If it is, it would increase the price per engine as compared to getting command from say, a K-Line engine, or a separate board from TAS.
I would say that you are best served by visiting layouts as Jon has mentioned, and go for the system that best suits your style. For me, I have prepared my wiring sceme for DCS, but am installing TMCC. I do not plan to get DCS, but this leaves the option open without having to worry about rewiring a layout.
I think your MTH track looks great. That whole layout looks great. That thing is huge. Is it actually in your house?
Wes
Wes--
Thanks for the compliments, it's been a labor of fun. It is in our basement, once the kids were finally gone I was allowed to take over and it's absolutely ideal for trains, I'm fortunate to have a very supportive wife.
I have to agree with you about the track, I think it looks fine. I don't use a computer aided track planner and I found that having a good inventory of the various sizes of MTH Realtrax worked great for me. This is our first attempt at building a permanent layout and I was all about making it easy for me, using that track and DCS made it easy. It's not for everybody, I'm comfortable with it and have no regrets.
Well I sent that movie to my wife before Christmas and said that this is what I want to do with the basement, and she said I was crazy. Do you have any more pictures or movies that I can see? I don't want to hijack the thread, so you can email me them if you have em.
Thanks,Wes
phillyreading wrote: Thank you Buckeye Riveter for the information about TMCC as I am sure that others can also use this info.Chief Eagles, is the cost for TMCC the same as DCS or less money to get into?Lee F.
You're welcome, Lee. When I wrote the response about the SC-2, I was in a hurry and did not elaborate. One of the things I should have mentioned is that the three SC-2s provides me with 18 slots, but at this time I am only running three switches and six accessories. Hopefully, as my layout expands, I use up the other 9 slots.
BTW, although no one ever seems to ask, the SC-2s are programmable. I can tell it to run different combinations of switches and accessories. On my first SC-2 that I purchased, I ran four switches and two accessories. That SC-2 has now been programmed to run just switches. This means when I wire the next three switches it is ready to go. The SC-2s that run accessories only are powered off of the small power packs that are included. The switches only SC-2 is powered from the track. (You discover things like this by reading the fine print in the instructions. Of course I had to read the instructions more than once. )
On an accessories like the Burning Control Tower where there are two actions, the fire and the stair climber, one slot on the SC-2 runs both functions. Again, I had to read the instructions and use a common ground.
I have experienced the bad signal/antenna problem. From other posts, it seems I need to open up the SC-2 and check the antenna to see if it is loose. The SC-2 can sit anywhere on the layout because it gets its signal from the track, just like the TMCC engines.
The best place to learn about SC-2s is from the Lion's mouth. They had the instruction book on their website the last time I looked.
Hi-if...you seem to be asking what beginner set to purchase. If so check these out
Jim H
Buckeye,
I can operate up to ten switches and ten accessories with one AIU(accessory interface unit) by MTH and hook up five AIU's total, 50 switches and 50 accessories, to one MTH DCS/TIU(track interface unit) unit, so far I am only able to dial-up switches to set the direction, no preset switch combinations but maybe I don't know everything about the DCS system. The handheld remote will let you add more TIU's to the DCS systyem or use it with some one else's DCS system. With DCS you must activate each locomotive for each session.
Currently I have five switches and one accessory wired to my AIU. Everything for DCS is hard wired except the handheld remote.
However I am limited to MTH products unless I add a TMCC base to the TIU.
Not sure about this but have read something on the subject of adding aluminum foil to the top of a layout to improve the signal reception for TMCC, there was an article some time back in CTT magazine, at least I think it was in CTT.
Consider what locomotives you will purchase first.
TMCC components work great, if you read everything about them first.
The Track Power Controller is the strong link in the chain of TMCC accessories.
Andrew
Watch my videos on-line at https://www.youtube.com/user/AndrewNeilFalconer
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