We all read about quality problems right out of the box on both MTH and Lionel units. I have purchased units off Ebay and found wires or rollers loose or missing. I sent my Lionel TI Duplex in for repair and when it came back (via UPS) the shims holding in the front guide wheels were broken. I have moved twice recently, both times over 1000 miles. The frist time not one thing was broken. The second time EVERY picture frame was cracked, the car was scratched, the bike was scratched and many other things were broken. The driver said he saw the vehicles in front of him dip and slammed on the brakes but hit a massive bump on the highway.
I also remember designing refrigeration equipment for real trains. We had to add extra "snubbers" so the engine would not jump out of the unit during bumps in coupling/uncoupling. If I remember correctly we had to expect several g's. I also remember containers begin "tossed" off ships during storms. I am sure containers get banged around in loading and unloading. Plus you have the possible salt exposure if a container leaks. If the problem is on an entire container then we could expect bad "lots" of equipment.
This leads me to wonder....
How much of the quality problem we see do you suppose is caused by shipping from China and then across the US via train and truck?
Jim H
That is a GREAT point! We'd like to believe that companies such as MTH and Lionel would have good quality control and they must know that good news and bad news travels at roughly the same rate. So... with that being said, I'd guess that shipping etc, would account for a certain percentage. The fellow at MTH told me EVERY engine is test run. I have no reason to doubt him, he very honest in every way, so how does a Shay not run out of the box? The driver design has been changed and is now pinned, so I'd say that design is weak, and a recall really should be in order. Knowing mine was not pinned, I would have insisted it be returned and the new drivers with pinning be installed, if I worked at MTH. Just a thought, Jake
Well, shipping could be an issue, but I do not think so. With so many products shipped to the US from the far east I think there would be a public outcry if we were talking about something other than toy trains. Automobiles, computers, DVD players, iPods, electronic components, etc. all are shipped by container to the US.
I believe that the complexity of today's toy trains is extremely high. I do not believe either Lionel or MTH (and their suppliers) have the appropriate quality controls in place yet. Having said that, I also believe that the quality will improve and that within three to five years it will no longer be an issue.
Regards,
John O
jimhaleyscomet wrote: We all read about quality problems right out of the box on both MTH and Lionel units. I have purchased units off Ebay and found wires or rollers loose or missing. I sent my Lionel TI Duplex in for repair and when it came back (via UPS) the shims holding in the front guide wheels were broken. I have moved twice recently, both times over 1000 miles. The frist time not one thing was broken. The second time EVERY picture frame was cracked, the car was scratched, the bike was scratched and many other things were broken. The driver said he saw the vehicles in front of him dip and slammed on the brakes but hit a massive bump on the highway. I also remember designing refrigeration equipment for real trains. We had to add extra "snubbers" so the engine would not jump out of the unit during bumps in coupling/uncoupling. If I remember correctly we had to expect several g's. I also remember containers begin "tossed" off ships during storms. I am sure containers get banged around in loading and unloading. Plus you have the possible salt exposure if a container leaks. If the problem is on an entire container then we could expect bad "lots" of equipment. This leads me to wonder....How much of the quality problem we see do you suppose is caused by shipping from China and then across the US via train and truck? Jim H
Trucks I can tell you a little bit.
You can toss a steel coil, chain it down and gently take it from point A to B and ensure it dont get jostled and damaged. You do want that nice washing machine in the store to look dent/mark free dontcha?
Or you can toss a Broadway Limited HO scale engine into the back of a UPS truck with a pile of other boxes driven by horse whipped drivers who have to account for every minute of thier workday. I prefer to fly my stuff in thank ye.
The post office? HAH. I pack my stuff for the Ebay customers sometimes box within a box and they tell me that some of the outer boxes got damaged but the product was still intact.
Or have a trailer load of merchandise for Kmart shoved into a swamp and left to rot leaning at a angle gauranteed to break whatever is breakable inside that trailer because some foreman told you to put the trailer right there and NOT down here on the pavement. Ok! Will do! I feel horrible. What a waste.
From my experiences I have been rather lucky with packages that get to the hobby store. I think recently one package was a Walthers Baggage car that totally did not have the required doors. I went ahead and bought two so I can use all the doors in both cars. Hidden damage and missing parts is the number one aggravation for me. Not the smashed boxes or failed inspection runs. I can always send those back for another round of UPS Joy.
I think Rapido Trains left a web page detailing shipping damage from overseas and how they refuse to fly any more product across the ocean. Too many people throwing stuff around like footballs they said.
Cheers.
I seriously doubt that MTH tests anything. I have had two recent premier engines fail right out of the box. One was dead in the water and the other did not smoke at all. Smoking is not a shipping problem. It is poor quality control from the factory and MTH could care less. Throw it on the wall and hope it sticks and charge big prices.
My two cents worth.
God bless TCA 05-58541 Benefactor Member of the NRA, Member of the American Legion, Retired Boss Hog of Roseyville , KC&D Qualified
I always try to double-box and include plenty of shock-absorbing material when I ship something. And I always insure it! But once it leave's your hands, it's a total crap shoot.
Jim
Modeling the Baltimore waterfront in HO scale
I have talked with a freind who worked at the post office in Homestead FL and he said the best way to ship anything is to insure it! That way every person who touches the package has to sign for it. Think about it-you put your signature on something and you do not want a report coming in saying that the package you handled was damaged, the customer will get paid! the employee may get docked some pay, so that is why you want to insure something, the person who ships something insured gets paid if any damages to the contents of the package.
Like Jim mentioned also doulbe box if you can.
Don't know policies about UPS or Fed Ex.
Lee F.
Bob Keller
40% ?!?!?!
Yikes!!
Really, though, I suspect the failure rate is not too dissimilar in the entire consumer electronics field. I've seen it across the spectrum: computer components, stereo systems, TV/VCR, etc. all failing right out of the box.
As others have noted, parts come loose, wires get strained, joints fail, mechanisms get jammed. Even things you wouldn't think could suffer from it--like smoke units--do.
Great point Jim!!! As a matter of fact, I just received a UPS package (not a train, thank goodness) that looked like the proverbial elephant stepped on it. The box was heavy duty corrugated cardboard and was very well sealed and constructed. But it was smashed beyond belief. The UPS guy tossed it on my doorstep and ran back to his truck like the devil himself was after him. I watched this whole thing out my front window. Luckily, the box only contained a soft flexible vinyl pouch I use for holding my radar detector. I have also stood in the Post Office and watched the staff there toss Priority Mail packages around like they were Joe Namath trying for a Hail Mary pass. They did this with impunity right in front of customers waiting to pick up their packages. I joked with the guy standing in line in front of me that those boxes were the ones marked "fragile". I shudder to think at the treatment of delicate electronics shipped via delievery companies in the US.
Dep
Virginian Railroad
That 40% figure starts overseas in the containers. Thousands of miles; sea, land, and air; hot and cold; bang and bump. . . .
It's a wonder that anything works when the consumer gets it.
Bob, I don't doubt what you saw at MTH all but how do you explain me receiving, direct shipped from MTH, two premier locomotives that the smoke unit did not work right out of the box? I have a very hard time believing the problem was in shipping since I fixed the problem. One had a piece of foreign material caught in the output vent and the other had the wick not touching the heating element. If MTH tested either locomotive they would have noticed they did not smoke.
I truly like MTH products but when you pay $900 to $1000 for a locomotive I think they should work out of the box. When they don't then MTH has a quality control problem.
John
Swipesy,
I used to design air conditioners for mobile medical units (Think a 48' trailer loaded with MRI coils and loads of computers). Since the units were full of computers we were VERY careful about never leaving "chips" of metal, loose screws, and junk around. All the trailers had special air ride suspensions and the computers also had air ride shocks. We tried to keep the insides like a clean room. One time I had to test a unit at White Sands New Mexico. I was the last one in to inspect the perfectly clean flawless unit before it left Florida. I was also the first one in to inspect it after it reached New Mexico. It was a disaster! There were bolts, screws, dirt and grime all over the interior. The floor was loaded with stuff. And this was in a unit that was never handled (ie like a package from truck to truck) or sorted. All it did was travel over 1000 miles.
Trust me...shipping is very hard on some things and VERY VERY rough on others. I could see a wick shifting and a piece of material coming from somewhere to get in the way. We really can not imagine the amount of bouncing a truck does or the amount of bumping a trailer suffers.
Regarding MTH's testing: I recently purchased the Premier Milw. Rd. EF2 set plus aux. D unit, over $1,400 total. The set ran, but a rear marker light was busted and one of the powered units had a bent motor shaft causing a horrific squeaking. So, if MTH tested this item, it wasn't much of a test drive. MTH has fixed the problems, though now a cab light burned out.
Paul
Shipping enables this hobby for me. First a train is produced in China then shipped to the US and then airlifted to Holland for me. Hitherto I only had one small issue: one diesel truck was loose in the box and I could easily fix it: that is all. So, that is quiet a good score.
Vibrations can be an issue with electronic devices, but it is rare. Think about a the well known example of the truck load of Danish butter cookies crumbled to dust because the vibrations of an American truck running idle equals the eigenfrequency of the cookies dancing in the tin. But this is rare (true rare not Ebay style rare). At my work we often monitor container loads with perishable goods coming from the Southern Hemisphere intended for the European market. Most climatised (CA) reefer sea containers perform outstandingly well compared to truck, air and rail transport in quality keeping condition of the fruits. We also studied non-climatised containers loaded with shelf-stable goods from Rotterdam to Japan. When these containers are in top-deck position and the boat navigates the tropical seas the temperature inside the containers rose to a staggering 90oC (almost enough to boil water, for Fahrenheit blokes) for a few days. That gave us an easy explanation for the quality loss we found of the food when it reached Japan. Few people know about this extreme high temperature in containers navigating the tropics on top-deck position, but it could be another explanation why some imported electronical devices are malfunctioning so rapidly, besides the careless postmans, etc. Do not have your container on top!
Greetings
Egbert
More to restore wrote: Shipping enables this hobby for me. First a train is produced in China then shipped to the US and then airlifted to Holland for me. Hitherto I only had one small issue: one diesel truck was loose in the box and I could easily fix it: that is all. So, that is quiet a good score. Vibrations can be an issue with electronic devices, but it is rare. Think about a the well known example of the truck load of Danish butter cookies crumbled to dust because the vibrations of an American truck running idle equals the eigenfrequency of the cookies dancing in the tin. But this is rare (true rare not Ebay style rare). At my work we often monitor container loads with perishable goods coming from the Southern Hemisphere intended for the European market. Most climatised (CA) reefer sea containers perform outstandingly well compared to truck, air and rail transport in quality keeping condition of the fruits. We also studied non-climatised containers loaded with shelf-stable goods from Rotterdam to Japan. When these containers are in top-deck position and the boat navigates the tropical seas the temperature inside the containers rose to a staggering 90oC (almost enough to boil water, for Fahrenheit blokes) for a few days. That gave us an easy explanation for the quality loss we found of the food when it reached Japan. Few people know about this extreme high temperature in containers navigating the tropics on top-deck position, but it could be another explanation why some imported electronical devices are malfunctioning so rapidly, besides the careless postmans, etc. Do not have your container on top!GreetingsEgbert
I recall using my reefer at a stable 65 degrees and roughly 45% humidity to protect product when loading in sunny climes and crossing the big bad Rockies with 10 degree weather and blizzard conditions.
The product may not require such protection but I usually burned a few dollars worth of reefer fuel to help it out a little bit, part of customer service I guess. The Fuel expense is so cheap versus the spectre of expensive product damage, rejection and other associated losses.
Some products like Paint requires this protection and is treated as a "Protected Load" along with the fruits, produces etc on the Reefer loading sheet.
I dont know about vibration on a average "American Truck" but a Freightliner Century equipped with full air ride hooked to a 53' Reefer also with full airride tends to have very little vibration reaching the product. The worst is actually the forklift banging around the stuff slamming into and out of the trailer.
UPS trucks are not protected. My recent BLI engine arrived very cold and is only now reaching room temperature, enough to begin pre-acceptance testing. One worry is that going from humid cold snow/ice weather to a nice hot room might create water inside the tender I dont know.
And finally, sometimes those container sit on a mainline between Flagstaff and Mojave. It gets very hot at times out there and they cook just as well as in the Tropics.
Well we have beat this subject pretty hard, lol.
I am a big fan of MTH and love their product. I also am an executive in a very large trucking transportation business that moves high value items all over the world so I think I know a little something about shipping. The problems I have experienced with 3 out of 6 premier engines from MTH are clearly quality MTH control issues and not shippers issues.. In this case fact overrides theory here. MTH is not doing quality control on enough of their product before shipping. I for one do not appreciate having to take apart a brand new $1,000 locomotive. I just want to run it and enjoy it. Amen !!!
Safety valve.... I use to design reefer units for Thermo King. There is a bit of vibration from that diesel running, but I am not sure how much would be transferred through a load.
It's a hum that puts you to sleep.
If any failure of the high side happens and it starts to choke putting a one million dollar load at risk, you betcha Carrier, Transicold or anyone within a short drive is going to get the call.
If a load like that quits in the tropics a week from any port deep within several stacks of containers... well. that's what insurance is for.
But we are into "Big" trucks here. It's the little ones that dont enjoy the airride and some even has to endure gravel roads when they make thier rounds. Vibrate that! He he.
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