Problem With Polar Express Coaches-- An Update and Final Thoughts

[Dampfmann]

I tried to post a reply to the thread I created, but the forum is locked. More on that later...

I removed the suspect piece of tubular track and conducted the following experiement. I removed the top of an unaffected coach and ran it behind number 1225. I set the throttle for 12 volts and ran the train for 1-hour around the track oval. Everything ran smoothly. The coach lights remained lit at a constant intensity. I inspected the wiring in the car and it revealed no visible damage.

I repeated the same experiment only this time on the Fastrack oval. Again, there was no visible damage after 1-hour of constant operation.

Therefore, it seems the track is the culprit, not the wiring of the coahces.*

*If this is the case, then I agree with the gentleman who said (I'm paraphrasing) we (owners of Lionel) should not have to pull out our electrical test probes everytime we want to operate our trains. I happen to have this piece of apperatus and happened to consult the users of this forum for advice. I suspect most folks who purchase this or any other train set for the holidays do not own this equipment nor are they aware of this forum's existence. Lionel's engineers must take this into account when designing their equipment. Sooner or later that piece of equipment will operate under less than optimal circumstances. Will it survive?

I grew up believing Lionel equipment is that it is practically indestructible. I think the abundance of pre and post war equipment still in operation attests to this fact. Think about it. Some locomotives have been in use for 50+ years. What else do you own that you can say the same thing about? Will we be saying the same thing 50+ years from now about the Lionel/MTH, etc. trains manufactured today? My guess is, no. It seems most electronic devices manufactured today have a very limited lifespan. For example, I suspect to get only 4-5 years of use from the computer I'm using right now. The more complicated something is the more it seems can go wrong with it.

The "sophisticated" electronics of today's locomotives have improved their operating realism with all sorts of "bells and whistles"-- pun intended. Although, the same features have diminished use of our imaginations. Admit it. We all have made "chugging" and other locomotive sounds at one time or another. Now we can push a button to produce digital sounds. I, for one, believe my "stack talk" ranks up there with the best of 'em.

Lastly, if this problem has happened to me, I imagine it has or will happen to others. The only way we, the collective users of this forum, will hear about it is if someone happens to post their message here or perhaps someone will post something they heard second or third hand. Until that happens, my problem will seem like a total fluke even though it may be more common than imagined. The variables that led to the problems with my coaches aren't that uncommon.

Sincerely,

Martin

[Buckeye Riveter]

I want to thank you for bringing this matter to our attention.  Your documentation of the problem and your update and conclusion about the track is appreciated.  You have saved several of us the time it would take to unpack and remove the roof of the PE cars to see if we have a problem.  My daughter's PE can stay in storage until next December, but if I start to smell something next December as it traverses the oval of Fastrack, I have a good start to where to look! 

Thanks again.

[Kooljock1]

I remember the smoke pouring from the windows and doors of my dad's 600 series coaches. The insulation cracked off and the wires touched the frames.

Those are Pre-War Lionel cars.

Post War longevity? Many post war trains not only fail, but are practically unfixable. For giggles sometime, disassemble a Scout motor. Easy right?

Now reassemble same.

Call me when you're done.

Lionel could up-grade the gauge of the wires on their cars, cabeese, and accessories... but nothing takes the place of proper track maintenence and proper layout wiring.

Jon

[Anonymous]

I remember the smoke pouring from the windows and doors of my dad's 600 series coaches. The insulation cracked off and the wires touched the frames.

Those are Pre-War Lionel cars.

Post War longevity? Many post war trains not only fail, but are practically unfixable. For giggles sometime, disassemble a Scout motor. Easy right?

Now reassemble same.

Call me when you're done.

Lionel could up-grade the gauge of the wires on their cars, cabeese, and accessories... but nothing takes the place of proper track maintenence and proper layout wiring.

Jon

Jon,
I couldn't agree more!  When I received my first Lionel engine and cars many years ago, I was setting up the track my father had in storage for years (old Marx stuff).  Well I came across some track sections that didn't look good (they were slightly rusted).  I asked my father how to clean them and he told me 'use some of the extrafine steel wool in my tool chest', so I did and cleaned it.  Before he let me run the trains he also had me whipe it down with some cheese cloth.

Manufacturers can never be held accountable for our mistakes, that is just crazy.  We have to take responsibility and maintain our equipment.

Brent

[Bob Keller]

For the record, I locked the thread because it ceased to be about the Polar Express problem, and had more to do with guys yelling at each other.

[Anonymous]

For the record, I locked the thread because it ceased to be about the Polar Express problem, and had more to do with guys yelling at each other.

Bob,
The problem with that thread started when one poster began suggesting that someone contact the Consumer Product Safety Board (a Legal Entity).  That is just plain wrong!  There was nothing at all wrong with the manufacturing of the PE Cars, the problem was with track maintenance.

Dampf did an excellent job sorting through everything and most of the replies did an excellent job helping him diagnose the problem.  This is a train forum and not a legal advice forum and it should remain that way.

I had recently purchased a set of passenger cars and was curious as to their construction, when I opened mine and found the exact same wiring schematic as in the PE Car picture, I informed the forum that my Christmas Cars were wired the exact same way, appeared to have the same gauge wire, and running on my FasTrack Christmas layout have had no problems.

Just and FYI!

Did not mean for that thread to turn into a name calling, or flame, war.

Peace - out

[Bob Keller]

I know.

And we don't need to get that started again ...

[steinmike]

Folks:

There's a good point to all of this for those of us who operate our trains.

Dampfmann's "Newark" postwar passenger car (that didn't have any problems) is a 1950's design from Lionel.  It's a 2400-series shorty passenger car with metal frame inside the plastic shell and a single pickup roller.  Both of the metal trucks are connected to the metal frame and provide connectivity to common (the outside rails).  With clean track, wheels and pick-up roller, these cars run pretty well with minimal flickering.

The Polar Express cars are a re-work of the "Baby Madison" cars introduced by MPC in the 1970's.  The car bodies are plastic and relatively light and tend to bounce on uneven track work causing the lights to flicker. The cars have undergone a lot of changes over the years, one of them being that current production cars have a pick-up roller and wiper over the axles (for connection to common) on both trucks to minimize the flickering, and it seems to do this reasonably well. 

The problem here is that if you have some bad track, as Dampfmann did, the connection between the two rollers becomes the path of least resistance and more current flows through the wires than was intended for the time that the rollers provide a bridge between the good and bad track.

I use TMCC with "O" tubular track and don't have to worry about separate blocks, but do worry about even power distribution.  I have a 12-gauge wire "ring main" running under under the layout with connectors running up to the center rail every four feet or so.  Even if I have a bad track section, the path of least resistance will continue to be the "ring main" and not one of my passenger cars.  If you run the "baby Madisons" or the recent re-issues of the 2400-series cars (which also have the same pick-up roller / wiper trucks as the "baby Madisons"  it might be worth considering using a ring main or wiring in jumpers between track sections.  Another thought might be to re-wire the car so that you have only a single pick-up and the two connections to common just like the old post-war design.

Just a thought.

Regards all,

Mike   

     

[lionelsoni]

I'm afraid that the Newark is a poor example of the good old days when 2400-series cars had single pickups.  The Newark (2434 in 1954, 2444 in 1956) had one pickup because it was newer, not older.  To quote the service manual, "Cars built prior to 1954 used two Light Coupler Trucks...  Cars made thereafter used one Coupler Truck...and one Light Coupler Truck."  The earliest 2400 cars had both pickups wired together, just like the modern Polar Express cars.

It's interesting to me that Mike mentions the ring-main concept.  The ring main is a British concept whereby what we would call a branch circuit is run around a building and then back to its origin, where both ends are terminated at the overcurrent device.  The IEE Wiring Regulations allow a ring main to be protected at a higher current than would otherwise be used for the wire size on the basis that loads are supplied from both ends and therefore effectively by two sets of wires in parallel.  The NEC forbids this sort of thing with the reasoning that the path in one direction can become open, leaving the other underprotected, or that a heavy load close to one end of the ring can draw its current predominately from one side and thereby overload it.

Overcurrent protection is not the problem here; but the same problems that can befall a branch-circuit ring main can apparently cause trouble in a toy-train track as well.  One solution seems to be, as Mike describes, to augment the "ring main" of the track with a more robust copper ring main under the table; and I agree that that is an excellent solution.  My first instinct would be, as you all know, to solder the rails, that is, to make the track itself more robust.  Either way, I think that electrical robustness in the track is the answer.

[Buckeye Riveter]

Mike, you have brought up something that I believe is worth expanding upon.  

Connect the power to your track at least every 6-8 feet alternating the outside track connection.  It solves a lot of problems.  My trains operate so much better since I rewired the layout last year.  The only place the conventional engines slow down is heading up the grade.

[dwiemer]

Thanks for this thread and for the great advise that is very timely in my case.  I am about to wire my layout.  I would encourage anyone else who has a problem to post as it lets us all learn.

Dennis