Warp Speed--What's the Point?

[EIS2]

I wonder why the O-Gauge train manufacturers (primarily Lionel and Williams) make conventional engines that run at warp speed.  MTH puts cruise in almost all of their engines so high speed is not really an issue with their engines. 

The range of travel on my modern ZW handle is very small between the setting where the conventional Lionel or Williams engines don't stall and the setting where the engines will fly off the tracks.  It would be nice to be able to use the full throttle range to operate the engines.  Using TMCC or DCS in conventional mode improves control a little.

I know they make electrical motors that run at slower speed.  I recently bought a new N-Gauge Bachmann Spectrum 2-8-0 and it runs very smoothly through all speed ranges.  It does not fly off the track at max power.  The slower speed is due to the new electrical motors and not gearing.

Earl

[Birds]

Earl,

My experience has been different, but I am not using the same transformer as you. 

I find that my KW transformer allows my Lionel and Williams engines to behave very nicely in regards to speed.  Depending on how much throttle play I wish to have will determine which set of binding posts I connect the track wires.

When connected to the A-U posts I have a 6-20 volt range.  This makes for some quick starts when the engine is single, but with a heavy load, or when climbing a steep grade, it works well and smooths things out nicely.

When connected to the A-C posts I have a 0-14 volt range.  This makes for a very smooth and gradual build up of speed along the full range of the throttle.  I can run the throttle wide open and the trains won't fly off of O-31 curves.

So my experience has been that the speed is less related to the engines and makers, and more a factor of how I have my transformer wired.

Chris 

[otftch]

I use a Lionel cab 1 with 180 Watt powermasters and have very good slow speed control.

                                                                                  Ed

[dwiemer]

If your Williams engines are dual motors, you can hook the motors up in series and that will give you much better control at lower speeds.  Do a search on the forum and you will find a couple of threads on this.  Many folks convert the engines, and I believe that Williams even has the diagram and instructions on their web site.

Dennis

[lionelsoni]

It is also possible to wire universal motors in series, with the same benefit.  I have two NW2s wired back-to-back that way.  Motors with 2-position e-units can be slowed down by converting to 3-position units and using both field windings rather than just one.

[EIS2]

If your Williams engines are dual motors, you can hook the motors up in series and that will give you much better control at lower speeds.  Do a search on the forum and you will find a couple of threads on this.  Many folks convert the engines, and I believe that Williams even has the diagram and instructions on their web site.

Dennis

I don't think the consumer should have to modify the equipment (and void the warranty) to get good control of the speed.

Ed, I can get good slow control with TMCC and the Cab-1 also.  But turning the red speed control knob on the Cab-1 just a small amount will speed the engine up to layout escape velocity.

 Chris, I am not familiar with the KW but it sounds like a reasonable solution.  Maybe the transformer manufacturers will give us a low, medium, and high voltage range on their new transformers.  I have played around with setting the max voltage on the ZW using the handle with TMCC or the max voltage setting with DCS.  They both work to prevent the engine from going too fast but the fine speed control is just not there. 

Going back to my N-Gauge Bachmann Spectrum 2-8-0, it has very fine speed control throughout the entire power supply range with no sophisticated electronics.

Thank you for all of the replies.

Earl

[pbjwilson]

I agree with you Earl. The speed range in other scales is broader. The low speed of 3rail engines,except for the newer ones with speed control, is almost nonexistant. A hobby shop employee once told me as he was demonstating a Lionel geep, "Its Lionel, they're supposed to run fast."

Things that I do to improve low speed is overlubing my engines. Adding weight to rolling stock so the engine is really pulling a load. Keeping engine wheels clean. Cleaning the motors often with electronics cleaner spray. Adding a drop of Rail zip on the brushes to help electrical flow.

"Hey, theyre Lionels, theyre supposed to run fast"

[Buckeye Riveter]

If your Williams engines are dual motors, you can hook the motors up in series and that will give you much better control at lower speeds.  Do a search on the forum and you will find a couple of threads on this.  Many folks convert the engines, and I believe that Williams even has the diagram and instructions on their web site.

Dennis

Dennis, since I converted my Williams to TMCC, I wonder if I could have had better control if I had wired the motors in series.   Hmm.................something to think about.

[chuck]

If you use the new ZW under Command Control, you can set the speed steps from 32 to 64 or 96.  This will allow for finer control. 

The original transformers were designed to run open frame motors that didn't usualy start to move until there was 5-7 volts on the track.  Modern can motored units can start to move at lower voltages.

Toy trains were designed to be played with by children.  One of the things the manufacturers have noticed is that children don't seem to be interested in running trains slowly.  In fact, most will try to run the loco just to the point were it won't roll off the track when taking a sharp turn at high speeds.

Can motors in most modern train sets were selected for size/cheapness, not necessariy for operational characteristics.  Brass two rail loco's tend to use quality motors and "transmissions" that don't compromise as much on perfromance BUT these were not designed to  be "toys" and often work poorly on tight radius curves. 

[Roger Bielen]

DRAG TRAINS!

[Anonymous]

Earl (EIS2)

As had been pointed out, the bigger pre- and post-war transformers typically had a minimum output of between 5 and 8 volts. At the other end of the throttle range some went as high as 24 or maybe even 28 volts, unmodified. Back then, locos and rolling stock tended to be heavy, relative to today's equiment. The vaunted 1033 had a dual range throttle. Low range was about zero with a max of 11; high range was about 5 to a max of about 16. As Chuck has said, kids of that era tended to run their trains quite fast indeed.

One of the things I like about the CW-80, whether original or newly revised*, is that they provide a working range of about zero to 16 volts. I can take an inefficient postwar 736 (for example) off the track and substitute a very efficient Williams dual-motored diesel, wired just as it came from the factory, and have excellent control and slow-speed operation -- not 2 scale mph, mind you -- but slow enough to be prototypical. The CW's "ramp-up throttle" feature enhances the effect. Starts are smooth and gradual. On my postwar ZW or KW, the thing starts like a jackrabbit and just flies! I considered re-wiring the Williams motors in series, but with the CW-80 I no longer see a need to do so.

 *As far as I know....