Questionaire: Are you a "Scale" or "027" operator?

[brianel027]

I'm curious as to how many guys here are running scale-sized, command type trains and how many are running the more 'traditionally' sized trains on either '0' tubular or '027' track, and whether as a traditional non-scale operator, you utilize either Lionel's TMCC or MTH's DCS? And how big is your layout - is it the typical 4'x8' (or slightly larger) OR do you have a basement sized layout?
Thanks gang! Brianel

[brianel027]

The length of the topic question is limited, so let me explain my curiosity.
In recent years we've seen a dramatic shift in product offerings, with a distinct emphasis on high-end, scale sized / detailed, electronics oriented trains. This is obviously aimed at the adult market of die-hard train guys, who have more money to spend (and ARE spending it on scale trains) and chances are, have large basement-sized layouts. But I do not believe this is the majority of modelers, even if they spend more money.
From people I've talked to and editorials I've read in both CTT and the OGRR magazines, it seems the bulk of modelers are either '0' tubular or '027' modelers who have layouts more in the size range of no more than a couple 4' x 8' sheets of plywood. Again, in both magazines, I've read that starter set sales are impressively up. Lionel's own survey found very disappointing numbers in the modelers using TMCC.
I would logically think that there would be at least a few more non-command, smaller 'representative' non-scale trains being offered... even some new tooling and current roadnames on these smaller items. Again, this is not the case. The only way to have current roads like CR, CSX, BNSF, CPR, or NS is to buy 'scale' product as there is virtually NONE in affordable smaller traditionally sized trains, save for Wiliams with their boxcars, GP-9's and Centercab switchers, and some earlier Railking product. (I don't call the new NS and BNSF flatcars from Lionel affordable at $60 list.)
Dealers I talk with are beginnng to agree with me that there is a need for more affordable, non-command trains. As one said to me, "all my scale customers have all the trains they need. There's very little to offer new comers outside of sets and breaking up sets." Even Lionel's nice FasTrack (which offers immediate gratification on that holiday floor layout) severely limits one to nothing more than an extended oval on a typical 4'x8' sheet of plywood... at least with '027' or '0', you can have a little bit more of a layout in the same space.
Obviously, the train importers are going where the money is being spent. But it also seems to me that families and newcomers are not going to spend $500 on an engine or $60 on a single non-operating car. If there is to be market growth, wouldn't it seem there should be some product aimed at this audience (to give Lionel credit, they have expanded the $25-$30 starter car line up, and I do like the Waffle boxcar). I'm certainly not buying many trains in the past few years. As an '027' operator, there is very little to choose from these days unless you buy older used trains.
Again, I'm curious where some of you other guys are at on this topic.
Thanks again, Brianel

[tmackinator]

I run post war 0 or 0-27 trains. To me the new trains have no soul. I can appreciate the detail and features but prefer the "old stuff". I have over thirty engines, a couple are late model. I just don't like them as much. If I'm going to spend bigger dollars I will spend it on collectable postwar items. My layout is a 12 x 16 U shaped piece with only enough room to walk up the center. One zw, one z, one kw, one 80w set xformer (new) and some smaller "accessories only"units. I don't strive for a retro look however, I am trying to achieve a high rail look. The beauty of this hobby is that you do what makes you happy and everyone seems to like it no matter what. -TM

[Roger Bielen]

My layout is 14' X 26" w/ 2 mainline loops. I used Gargraves flex track and Ross switches. For control I have TMCC w/ 2 180W PH's througth a TPC400. As To trains I run O-27, O, semi-scale and scale, though I limit passenger cars to the shorter offerings. The only thing I do is keep my rolliing stock and motive power to pre-1960 and try to somewhat match rolling stock sizes in a train. I also don't run O-27 on one track while having scale on the other.

My buildings and accessories are mostly scale with my postwar mixed in.

[Anonymous]

I use a Lionel tubular track, 0 for mainlines and 027 for yards. I have Lionel TMCC although I only have 1 command control loco. I just like the freedom of movement TMCC offers. I run a mix of Lionel post war and modern diesels. I prefer the modern loco's, mostly because of the electronic reverse units. I do not have any loco's with a sound system. Just a whistle or horn is fine with me. I did have a Lionel SD-40 with Railsounds for a while. Although the system sounded great and worked great, I found the engine noise annoying after a while and just turned it off. I did like the diesel horn and bell of Railsounds though. I run a mixture of post war and modern Lionel rolling stock. I really like the cars Lionel has offered in the past few years and have been selling some of my post war cars so I can acquire more new cars. The realism and paint schemes are great. My layout is located in our 30' by 30' attic. I just set everything up on plywood sheets, no scenery!! I switched from HO to O in 1995 to get away from rivet counting and scenery, too stressful!!. I just enjoy running my Lionel trains and accessories.

[Anonymous]

I currently have a table-top semi-permanet layout that fits on top of a 42" x 72" dining room table. There are two concentric loops with 4 switches configured as cross-overs. The track is tubular O-31.

I've got a postwar starter set I inherited from my father, a 1980s vintage JLC Hudson locomotive, and a new H9 Consolidation with TMCC & Odyssey. My son has a Great Train Robbery set, and we have about 3 or 4 more pieces of non-powered rolling stock.

There's also a command base & CAB-1 hidden away in the house for my Christmas present [;)]

My intention is to build a permanent layout after our new addition is finished some time next year; I probably won't get started building benchwork for it until spring of 2005. I'm going to use GarGraves track & Ross switches on that layout (take my advice, stay away from the new Lionel 022 switches, they stink. The postwar ones, from what I hear, are very reliable, though.)

When I get that layout built, I'll only be able to use O-31 curves, maybe some O-42 or some Super-O O-36. In that case, I can't do a true scale layout, and I can't run any scale engines that require O-72 curves. So I'll be sticking with the non-scale rolling stock.

Tony

[marxman]

I am a 027 TOY TRAIN advocate. Really I am a Collector, but to have a collection, one must have a layout. I have only a 4x8 layout with three loops of track and every inch covered with building and accessories. I run my MARX collection and a few trains that K-line has made reusing the MARX dies and molds. Scale is too large, and electronics are just too expensive. But I do run one K-line steamer with "Real Sounds". I love the whistle & bell, but the chuffing gets tiresome after a while and has no volume control, so I just turn it off. I am a kid again everytime I grab the throttle, and in my immaginary world I can be in control. I like lots of accessories and lots of lights, this is my world just the way I like it.

[wallyworld]

I would like to see a poll if it has'nt already been been posted, that asks the question:
Did you begin modeling in O Gauge? If not, what gauge did you begin in?
I began my own modeling in HO scale and moved to 02. I got tired of the rigors and frustrations within the limitations of "protoype,"accuracy, et al. I let my imagination do the walking. I could open my own hobby shop with all the HO micro-screws and bolts that are buried in my sofa, rug and chair. Whatever floats ones boat is just ok by me.

[Anonymous]

I'm a recent convert from HO. I enjoy playing with my trains and the accesories as opposed to "operating my pike" and worrying about rivet counts, but thats just me. Limited to a 4' x 8' sheet plywood due to space availibilty, as basements are unheard of on the Texas Gulf Coast, I am using Lionel O-31 tubular rail and turn outs. Rolling stock and engines are limited to those that can negotiate O-27 curves.The smaller size of the traditional O-27 rolling stock looks better on my small layout, to my eye at least. I find the concept of command control attractive but I do not see myself taking advantage of the technology on a smaller layout, as a result I will continue using traditional block control. If I had a large walk around layout then I would use TMCC. Railsounds is a different matter. I hope to add railsounds equiped loco's in the future.

[lionelsoni]

I have an 11x18' around-the-wall O27 layout. I use larger radius O27-profile curves where I can. The outside main line in particular is Marx O34, to accommodate visitors and my 773, which is the only piece I have that cannot run elsewhere on the layout.

Postwar predominates, but I have a fair amount of modern and a little prewar and European stuff too. I enjoy getting large pieces to run on O27. I have succeded with a Rail King Big Boy, a Trainmaster, Superliners, a 16-wheel flatcar, and some rather long passenger cars. As for scale, I run everything from 45:1 European O (ETS)through Lionel 48:1 (F3, Trainmaster, e.g.) to 9" boxcars and 7" prewar passenger cars.

I dislike the modern control systems. I use a Lionel Z and a Flyer 30B, both heavily modified for my own synchronous-rectifier control system, which allows me to run two locomotives independently on the same track, but both locomotives and transformers are easily switched to normal AC operation. I have pulled computers with sound systems out of new locomotives and replaced them with E-units and mechanical whistles.

[Anonymous]

As far as Lionel O and O-27...I've only had the opportunity to operate O-27. My collection began with a Nickel Plate Road O-27 set when I was about 5. So all the track I have today is O27.

I'm 17 now, and wished I'd been using O31 at the time, with the lionel O profile. Just for the sake of being able to use the bigger engines and rolling stock.

Tho....in the future, (read: when I'm 50 and have the money) I plan on building a layout that is completely based on O72, whether it be lionel track or not.

[Anonymous]

I'm 17 too and use O27 as well. Like others, I am only interested in prewar and postwar toy trains. The modern era trains are very nice, but they're really expensive and somehow just aren't the same. I would much rather spend a large amount of money on something that's old and genuinely collectable. There's are that nostalgic feel about having vintage trains. They just have something that modern trains don't. I'm actually a collector, but a do have a large layout to run my trains on. The new controls like TMCC, DCC and DCS are quite amazing, but I'm perfectly satisfied with my traditional controls. Some of my trains are actually old windups that don't need a transformer. I'm not the most computer/technologically inclined person and find these new controls a bit too complicated and overwhelming. I have nothing against modern era stuff or what's coming out now, in fact I'm glad the manufacturers are producing such incredible things for hobbyists. But we each have our own interests and prefer different aspects of the hobby. My personal preferance happens to be prewar and postwar.

[Anonymous]

Yeah, we are very different in our tastes.

I would buy and run postwar stuff, but I don't care very much for the prewar. I'm mostly modern tho. But the prices are rough, so that limits my collection to next to nothing.

Tho the trains went away the last 4 years, so thats 4 christmas's without new Lionel stuff :)

I'm more into running the trains and acessories. I'm not into prototypical operation. I would just like a nice blend of running the trains, operating the accesorries, and some scenery. I find the best for me at the moment is to lay as much track as possible and try to be creative. I have an L shape, and I run 1 loop all the way around with a passing siding. On the inner loop, it is a big L shape loop that parallels the outer loop, but it also has reversing loops on each end, along with 2 sidings. Then, I'll be running a totally elevated oval to accomodate my bridges and to take up space. Its actually going to partially rest on top of the standard illuminated station platforms. Should be quite nice when I finish.

I don't have much in the way of operating accesories, so laying alot of track is necessary to keep the layout from being too sparce.

I regret getting out of trains the last 3-4 years, because Santa coulda brought me an Ice Depot, a Barrel Loader, the Log Loader, and perhaps one of the types of coal tipples/loaders in that time span. But hey, I'm satisfied enuf with what I have right now.

I run a Nickel Plate 4-4-2, a plastic Alco Amtrak set, and a Conrail GP7.

Oh, and I just landed a partime job at Island Trains (www.islandtrains.com) - And they have a small TMCC layout in the shop which I can play with when its slow. :)

[Anonymous]

My layout is on a 4'x8'. The configuration is an oval with a passing track with a spur coming off it. I use the MTH Real Trax straights with the O31 curves and switches. The operating tracks are Lionel. All track is Standard O. Motive power and rolling stock are largely of the O27 variety. My transformer is a Postwar ZW with a Sound Activation Button ( I have two locomotives with digital sound). Structures are a combination of scratchbuilt, kitbashed, and one that has yet to be touched. The O27 does not overpower my layout like something more in scale would. Plus the O27 fits my layout's timeframe.

HMH

[Anonymous]

Brianel:
Looking for some bargain rolling stock, look up K-Line, they have a line of
cars "Train 19", selling for $15 at K-Line Superstores. Even better K-Line has "Keystone" boxcars, selling for $10.95, available at the superstores for $8,
I have tried eight of them......a real quality item, eight inches long and no problem
on O-27 curves.
If you are not near a Superstore.......go to www.justrains.com, located in Delaware,
they have the best prices on all their stock......give em a try.

George

[brianel027]

Thanks to everyone so far for responding. Yes, George I do like the Train-19 cars... the couplers and trucks are the best K-Line has done so far. What annoys me about Train-19 is that 50% of the offerings are rehashes of previously made "Classic" cars. And outside of the CSX flat and the Conrail box car, there are no other modern roads... and why is it everyone makes blue CR boxcars? K-Line claims to be so concerned about prototype, yet the real Conrail only had ONE blue box car and it was a test. There were far more Penn Central green Conrail box cars, never mind brown and tuscan. And I do like the small 8 inch K-Line cars... I repaint nearly every one of them, plus make improvements and add details, so I have small cars in roads that no 027 guy can dream of... CSX, Norfolk Southern, BNSF, Conrail, CP Rail. Since these are todays roads and the companies "claim" they want to grow the market and reach young families and kids, it seems logical to me to offer these smaller budget cars in current roads instead of roads that no kid today has ever heard of or seen on the real rails today. Again, the Keystone Classics are just clone variations off the 027 cars that postwar Lionel made. (I actually like the paint schemes on the K-Line 'S' scale cars, except for having to pay more for 'S' scale trucks that I end up ditching and then having to buy 027 trucks.) Like I said above, the only way a modeler can model today's roads is to buy scale sized cars because most of the importers have ignored the smaller sized items.

Sorry. That said (and lack of modern road names is one of my big peeves) it's interesting that a few of you have come to 3-rail trains from HO. One thing I notice on the OGRR Forum, is that the 3-rail scale guys are becoming as nitpicky about prototypical detail as the HO guys. I like that some of you have said "whatever floats your boat." I agree!! This hobby should be big enough to make ALL modelers feel welcome - be they scale modelers or hirailers or tinplaters or variations thereof... I'm an 027 hi-railer... I run smaller trains, but I love to add details, repaint, kitbash, design my own operating cars and accdessories, and scratchbuild. One thing that annoys me about the OGRR Forum is that you post something on 027 and you get responses like 'you should run scale.' Or you post about non-control and someone tells you if you don't use TMCC, you're not running trains correctly. Or in a recent post there on Williams, many were complaining that Williams should offer all the computer electronics. Geez, the ONLY company that sees a need and market for 'traditional' trains. Guys who want electronics can choose from EVERYONE else.

The way I see it, if the hobby is to grow, the more variety and options, the better. I too, don't fault those who like TMCC or scale-sized trains. I do fault it though when those views get imposed on others. And it also seems that the 'traditional' operator has been forgotten, or at least set aside recently while the various importers (Lionel, K-Line, Atlas, MTH, etc) continue to one-up eachother in features and details (and also prices). Families with kids aren't spending $600 on a train engine. Likewise for many budget conscious adults. And I guess the scale guys aren't buying enough either, otherwise you wouldn't see the blowout prices on the scale-sized stuff.

Again, thanks eveyone.

[Anonymous]

I operate mid-range equipment: 034/042 (027 profile rail). I'm about to start the benchwork for my permanent layout 13' x 5' extreme dimensions) with 034 (Marx) and 042 curves. There may be some 027 in yards or spurs. All of what I own now will run on 027, but I'd like slightly broader curves (I also would like to get a couple of engines that need 042).

My conecption is midway between pure toy and hi-rail (I think someone in CTT christened it "toy-rail").

That said, I DO have some "scale" blood in me, and I intend to satisfy that blood by incorporating a point-to-point 0n30 line into the layout.

[Anonymous]

I've always been an 027/toy/non-scale type operator. My layouts have always been quite modest (currently 6' x 8') and non-scale fits my space and budget quite nicely. The best thing about this hobby is that you can participate and enjoy it in many different ways!

[Anonymous]

I operate both , Scale and Semi-Scale , with one caveat , my sharpest curves are 042 in the 027 line of track . In one my personal opinion is that the height of the 027 track is better looking than the 0 gauge height . I prefer the " tubular " track , it is reminiscent of the time I received my first set of trains ( at age 4 ) consisting of a PRR Steam Loco ( 2025 -675 ) and three illuminated sheet metal passenger cars . This set invokes many a happy memory for me .