Problem with Polar Express Coaches

[Anonymous]

Again...it should NOT be up to the consumer to do rewiring to make sure this situation doesn't happen. Obviously Lionel doesn't do ANY consumer or product testing, or these wiring problems that apperar not just in the PE cars, but in other of their rolling stock, wouldn't be going on. If it's a bad design from Lionel for cost cutting reasons, then LIONEL should be the ones to admit it and fix it. Of course, it will be a cold day in the Netherworld when that happens.

Just wondering...when you guys buy a new car and have an electrical problem, do you go out with your handy test probes and meters and try fixing it yourself? I think NOT. You are PAYING for a product that is SUPPOSED to be reliable from the factory. Not something that's partially complete and needs to be re-wired to make it safe/reliable.

Dep

Legal issues are definitely NOT your strong suit...

1. This is NOT a Lionel production problem - I have a new set of passenger cars, with the EXACT same wiring and I do not have this problem

2. This is a TRACK issue, not a CAR issue

3. Lionel can not, nor would MTH, be responsible for making sure that you, the opperator have properly cleaned and maintained your track.  Therefore you would be responsible for this, not Lionel, not MTH, not Williams, not Weaver, not Bachman, not John Schmoe, not Billy D. Williams, not the Attorney General, no one other than yourself.

It drives me nuts when you sit there an type this stuff that is totally OFF BASE.  You seem like an intelligent person, so please stop your anti-Lionel drivel on every post.  It serves no other purpose than to drive the rest of us nuts and may result in our not trusting your opinion on any subject matter.

To answer your question, when I buy something that doesn't work out of the box and I have other items that are working fine, the first thing I do is put it back in the box, drive to my LHS, have them set it on the track and ensure the item is defective, if it works fine then I go home and ensure I have set everything up properly.  In the 15+ years I have been in this hobby I have only had to return 1 item that has been defective. One in 15+ years, 100s of items bought and only 1 defect... that isn't very bad.  I have bought a number of automobiles over that same time period and I have had to take each of them back for repairs... guess we should stop buying cars now?

[csxt30]

  Lionroar !!

Legal issues are definitely NOT your strong suit...

 so please stop your anti-Lionel drivel on every post.  It serves no other purpose 

Well put Lionroar !!  This is just the agenda of some ! Many of us have complained about this type of stirring up the pot. Must not have any other friends with both manufacture's equipment. Most of us have both & friends with both, so when we see the others with a problem in their particular equipment, we try to help, not bash their Manufacturer.  

[Deputy]

"Legal issues are definitely NOT your strong suit..."

"1. This is NOT a Lionel production problem - I have a new set of passenger cars, with the EXACT same wiring and I do not have this problem"

Oh really? The jury STILL seems to be out on whether it is a track problem OR a wiring problem. But even if it IS a track problem (and it hasn't been confirmed one way or the other), the wiring should STILL be of heavy enough gauge to PREVENT this problem. If Lionel insists on installing hair-sized wiring to make a few bucks profit, they better be ready for lawsuits when something like this happens. And the PE cars are NOT the only ones suffering this problem...as I mentioned earlier. Lionel used nice heavy gauge wiring in their postwar equipment. Why not CONTINUE that tradition instead of going on the cheap with their new stuff. If they want to maintain their good name, they will stand by their poblems when they crop up, instead of trying to blame the consumer.

"2. This is a TRACK issue, not a CAR issue"

Again...NOBODY has definitely established that that is the case. All we have are a bunch of THEORIES by amateur electricians. Unless and until we hear FROM A SERVICE DEPARTMENT otherwise, we don't know WHAT the issue gets blamed on.

"3. Lionel can not, nor would MTH, be responsible for making sure that you, the opperator have properly cleaned and maintained your track.  Therefore you would be responsible for this, not Lionel, not MTH, not Williams, not Weaver, not Bachman, not John Schmoe, not Billy D. Williams, not the Attorney General, no one other than yourself."

Again, we have NOT established that it IS a track problem causing this. I understand you waving your Lionel flag because you like them a lot. But let's not dump on the consumer when it hasn't been established beyond any doubt that it is his fault. I happen to own a number of Lionel locos and rolling stock. I am NOT anti-Lionel. I AM against any company that cuts costs to the point of endangering the person buying and using their stuff. Again, this is NOT the only instance of cheap wiring frying on Lionel products.

"It drives me nuts when you sit there an type this stuff that is totally OFF BASE."

Sorry...the truth hurts sometimes. 

"You seem like an intelligent person, so please stop your anti-Lionel drivel on every post." 

Totally false. As I said, I own quite a few Lionel products. I am not anti-Lionel...I AM anti-cheap junk. If they build it cheaply and it malfunctions, then they better be able to take criticism.  

"It serves no other purpose than to drive the rest of us nuts and may result in our not trusting your opinion on any subject matter."

I can't help that you get upset when Lionel cuts costs to make a big profit. Complain to Lionel. Don't shoot the messenger.

"To answer your question, when I buy something that doesn't work out of the box and I have other items that are working fine, the first thing I do is put it back in the box, drive to my LHS, have them set it on the track and ensure the item is defective, if it works fine then I go home and ensure I have set everything up properly.  In the 15+ years I have been in this hobby I have only had to return 1 item that has been defective. One in 15+ years, 100s of items bought and only 1 defect... that isn't very bad.  I have bought a number of automobiles over that same time period and I have had to take each of them back for repairs... guess we should stop buying cars now?"

Thank you. You proved my point. If you buy something defective YOU SHOULD NOT TRY AND REPAIR IT YOURSELF!!!!  That is all I was saying. If it's new and under warranty then it should be making a quick trip to the factory repair station to see what the problem is. Now please stop waving the Lionel banner and take your emotions down a notch.

Dep

 

[Deputy]

  Lionroar !!

Legal issues are definitely NOT your strong suit...

 so please stop your anti-Lionel drivel on every post.  It serves no other purpose 

Well put Lionroar !!  This is just the agenda of some ! Many of us have complained about this type of stirring up the pot. Must not have any other friends with both manufacture's equipment. Most of us have both & friends with both, so when we see the others with a problem in their particular equipment, we try to help, not bash their Manufacturer.  

Hi John,
          Recognize these words?:

  "I have the new NYC green Bay Window coboose & I will caution anyone on these cabooses as the wires in them, for lights & flasher & smoke unit, are so thin in diameter that all the wires in mine burnt to a crisp in only a week ! They need to be replaced with a larger diameter wire for sure if running in TMCC. I was not running mine in command at the time & they burned up. The dealer said I must have derailed it & burnt the wires up, but I didn't even have a switch on my layout at the time nor did it ever derail. It is a great looking cab though, just no lights or anything in mine now."

Dep

 

[csxt30]

  Lionroar !!

Legal issues are definitely NOT your strong suit...

 so please stop your anti-Lionel drivel on every post.  It serves no other purpose 

Well put Lionroar !!  This is just the agenda of some ! Many of us have complained about this type of stirring up the pot. Must not have any other friends with both manufacture's equipment. Most of us have both & friends with both, so when we see the others with a problem in their particular equipment, we try to help, not bash their Manufacturer.  

Hi John,
          Recognize these words?:

  "I have the new NYC green Bay Window coboose & I will caution anyone on these cabooses as the wires in them, for lights & flasher & smoke unit, are so thin in diameter that all the wires in mine burnt to a crisp in only a week ! They need to be replaced with a larger diameter wire for sure if running in TMCC. I was not running mine in command at the time & they burned up. The dealer said I must have derailed it & burnt the wires up, but I didn't even have a switch on my layout at the time nor did it ever derail. It is a great looking cab though, just no lights or anything in mine now."

Dep

 

What pupose that serve ? So far, no one else has mentioned they had that problem with their caboose wiring. I didn't think my old posts would be used against me. You need a new agenda.

You still don't get it . Write your problem without BASHING the other guy & the other brand. That's not what the forum is for. Do you always have to have your way ? You don't play well with others & I have hit the abuse button many times on your posts.  Will again,too .

[Buckeye Riveter]

The set comes with a loop of FasTrack right? Let him set it up and try to duplicate the problem. If the wires still melt the problem is with the cars, if not the track!

Jon

I have the new Christmas Passenger cars, operating on FasTrack, two roller pickups per car, and I do not have this problem, and the inside of my cars are wired the same as his... so leads me to believe it is something with his track...

My daughter's Polar Express for the third year in a row performed flawlessly with the supplied FasTrack and the CW80 Transformer.  It ran this year for sometimes three hours at a time under their tree at various speeds.  The only thing that is powered by the transformer is the train, no accessories. 

Has anyone seen a post on any other forum documenting the melting of the wires inside the passenger cars?  (The documentation on this posting has been excellent.  Thanks, Dampfmann! )  I have not seen other postings, but that doesn't mean I have read every post on every forum that discusses the Polar Express.  It doesn't mean that Dampfmann is the only one with this problem, but so far it seems an isolated incident, but with what I'm reading, if the problem can be duplicated on a loop of Fastrack, then it is certainly a car problem and not a track problem. 

One question that Dampfmann I don't believe has described is his curve radius. Tight curves sometimes make funny things happen between wheels and center rail contacts.

[Jim Duda]

Could it be that if you operate the PE on Fastrack (which is what I suspect the majority of PE owners do because it is supplied with the set) the PE coach wiring is adequate; but when you operate them on older trackage (less than optimal connections, track pitting, 027 curves, etc.), the wiring becomes marginal as described in the initial post?

Further, as long as the cars illuminate properly, how many owners inspect the integrity of the wiring?  Could it be some insulation could be degraded as posted but not noticed?

[Deputy]

What pupose that serve ? So far, no one else has mentioned they had that problem with their caboose wiring. I didn't think my old posts would be used against me. You need a new agenda.

You still don't get it . Write your problem without BASHING the other guy & the other brand. That's not what the forum is for. Do you always have to have your way ? You don't play well with others & I have hit the abuse button many times on your posts.  Will again,too .

I NEVER bashed the other guy OR the other brand. As I have said NUMEROUS times before, I OWN a good many Lionel products. But when something is wrong, and people KNOW it's wrong, it accomplishes NOTHING by hiding it or blaming it on the user who may NOT have done anything wrong in the first place. You seem to think that if someone points out a flaw in a product, which YOU did by the way with the post I quoted (and rightly so), that somehow it's "bashing" the poduct. It's NOT. It simply shows that there are PROBLEMS with the wiring on some Lionel products. That is a simple FACT. It is also a DANGEROUS situation if it is causing overheating of electrical connections, and Lionel needs to address it and not go into full denial.

I know you have hit the abuse button many times and many times it has been needlessly done. Forums are made to discuss things and present opinions. And in that format people are not always going to hold hands and sing Kumbaya. People are going to disagree. I am not your clone or anyone else's. I have my own opinions and outlooks on things. You certainly have your right to disagree. But running to the mods every time you disagree with or don't like what I post is certainly not a manly way to win a discussion. That's what kids do when they don't get their way.

Dep

 

[Buckeye Riveter]

Could it be that if you operate the PE on Fastrack (which is what I suspect the majority of PE owners do because it is supplied with the set) the PE coach wiring is adequate; but when you operate them on older trackage (less than optimal connections, track pitting, 027 curves, etc.), the wiring becomes marginal as described in the initial post?

Further, as long as the cars illuminate properly, how many owners inspect the integrity of the wiring?  Could it be some insulation could be degraded as posted but not noticed?

Jim, you are right on track, pardon the pun.   If I rememeber correctly from my childhood days running trains, we used to put stuff on the track between the center and outer rail and watch it get red hot at full power, so there is definitely juice enough to melt the insulation off of a wire.   How the juice is getting there is the mystery. 

[dougdagrump]

I am inclined to agree that it is a trackage issue, should this have been forseen who knows. But this is also a similar problem as experiencd with some of the offset cupola caboose with smoke & blinking lite(6-17xxx). This unit was designed and built well before TMCC was more than likely even on the drawing board. But operators are trying to use these in a TMCC environment and frequently ending up with a heat modified caboose as a result of the smoke unit getting to hot. One of these days I will get around to installing an upgrade, ERR I believe, that eliminates this issue. 

[lionelsoni]

- No personal attacks or name-calling. Please keep conversations cordial. We understand that there will be differences of opinion. Please don't let those differences turn ugly. Accept that others might not have your same point of view, don't sink to personal attacks. Nothing is gained by doing so.

I enjoy trying to solve the problems that forum members come up with here.  I do not enjoy flame wars.

[Deputy]

- No personal attacks or name-calling. Please keep conversations cordial. We understand that there will be differences of opinion. Please don't let those differences turn ugly. Accept that others might not have your same point of view, don't sink to personal attacks. Nothing is gained by doing so.

I enjoy trying to solve the problems that forum members come up with here.  I do not enjoy flame wars.

[riverrailfan]

Oh really? The jury STILL seems to be out on whether it is a track problem OR a wiring problem. But even if it IS a track problem (and it hasn't been confirmed one way or the other), the wiring should STILL be of heavy enough gauge to PREVENT this problem. If Lionel insists on installing hair-sized wiring to make a few bucks profit, they better be ready for lawsuits when something like this happens. And the PE cars are NOT the only ones suffering this problem...as I mentioned earlier. Lionel used nice heavy gauge wiring in their postwar equipment. Why not CONTINUE that tradition instead of going on the cheap with their new stuff. If they want to maintain their good name, they will stand by their poblems when they crop up, instead of trying to blame the consumer.

"2. This is a TRACK issue, not a CAR issue"

Again...NOBODY has definitely established that that is the case. All we have are a bunch of THEORIES by amateur electricians. Unless and until we hear FROM A SERVICE DEPARTMENT otherwise, we don't know WHAT the issue gets blamed on.

The problem was found on the first post on page 3

[Deputy]

While the corroded track certainly isn't a good thing, read the next post after the one you mentioned.

Dep

 

[otftch]

This post is getting like a Subway commercial....more meat...less fat.It seems to me Lionel (and all manufacturers) design thier products with no problems in mind.The wires in the coaches would not burn out if there were no problems.Obviously there is a problem here somewhere but to expect the manufacturer to anticipate every problem that could occur is senseless.Why are there so many other PE sets without this problem ?That is not to say the cars were not assembled incorrectly at the factory but his would fall under a mistake in manufacture not  in design.Our club's PE set has run for three years now with a lot of derailments and track problems and we've not burned out any wires.We even had a problem with the engine where a switch( reverse unit lockout) went bad but not all switches are to blame.Its time to take apart a car without the problem and compare it to one with a problem.Maybe the answer could be there,

                                                                         Ed

[1688torpedo]

 Hello All!   otftch- Your solution to the problem here should work. The Passenger Car/Cars should be compared to other Polar Express Cars that have no problems at all & a side by side comparision should reveal what the actual problem here is & then the problem can be solved accordingly. Take Care.

[lionelsoni]

This is the post after the first one on page 3: 

"The fact that your voltage fluctuated wildly from 2 - 10 volts is because the center rail is badly pitted and is probably dirty as well.  It does not mean that that track is the cause of your problem but it could be.  The heavy pitting on the center rail may be an indication of the problem.  You should put the track back in the layout, apply power to the layout, and measure the AC voltage drop accross each junction in the center rail.  The voltage drop accross every junction should be zero volts."

You could put a plastic pin in the track and it would still pass this test but might very well still burn out the wires.  The problem seems to be an open or nearly open circuit somewhere in the loop which is allowing there to be a different voltage drop to each side of that open circuit.  The wire in the car tries to equalize the voltages on the two sides of this gap by carrying a substantial part, if not all, of the current needed by the locomotive, which is more than it can handle.

[Deputy]

Last three posts get two . Reasonable possibilities and methods that are worth consideration and exploration. Thanks guys!

Dep

[ADCX Rob]

 Hello All!   otftch- Your solution to the problem here should work. The Passenger Car/Cars should be compared to other Polar Express Cars that have no problems at all & a side by side comparision should reveal what the actual problem here is & then the problem can be solved accordingly. Take Care.

They're all the same.  It's not a problem w/ the car(s), it's the track.

Rob