Hey folks, anyone who reads the train forums has a pretty good idea how I feel about things. As with my real, non-forum life, I make it practice to be as open and honest as I know how to be. Which as anyone knows, isn't always the most popular way to go as far as the short-term and immediate.
I've expoused plenty on "toy" trains, lower end products, starter sets, seeing kids back in the hobby, the spoiled-rotten "I want this now so you'd better make it now" adult buyers and the now common scale versus non-scale debates. But I've said it all before.
So I going to make an effort, which I've already started, to keep my postings to where I can actually offer advice, tips and pointers to folks. I've been in the hobby a while and done it entirely on a shoe-string, so it can be done. But you have to be creative, flexible and patient. Deals are out there, but you have to look for them, and can't assume that the guy who has over-priced his trains at some show is reflective of the whole hobby. I'm always reminded here of the joker I saw at some show years ago with a "MINT" condition Lionel Kickapoo Valley train set in an open Pepsi soda flat with a price of $250.00. I guess the grease that was on the track and loco wheels were an early attempt by MPC at weathering??!!
I don't have any regrets or reservations about what I think. I know others disagree, but since I've the privledge of talking at length with wholesalers, distributors, sales reps, designers and upper level people in various train companies, I think I have a good grip on things. All cemented by a decade of doing train shows and seeing first hand that what I think is actually truth, because I've seen it.
Not that I won't potentially allow myself to make a brief comment on these things, but for me, the most enjoyable part of the hobby are the trains themselves and helping other budget modelers. Not the usual debates. The topics of the debates are fine, as are the debates sometimes. But too often they tend to divide us hobbiests more rather than make the hobby better.
All the "bells and whistles" are fine as are the new scale products. What always gets under my skin is when others say there is NO way to enjoy the hobby without having all the electronic extras. To which I have always said "sheer nonsense!" To each his own, but what works for one person might not work for another.
I was checking out the OGaugeWatch web site and stumbled upon the following opinion. It's very good and really does sum up so much of what I've said over the years. For the most part it's pretty spot on and well worth a few minutes to read. It's nice to hear someone coming to similar conclusions. There's an interesting AP article too. Take a read.
Links:
http://www.ogaugewatch.com/ogaugewatchcom/2007/01/editorial_rips_.html#more
http://www.northjersey.com/page.php?qstr=eXJpcnk3ZjcxN2Y3dnFlZUVFeXk3JmZnYmVsN2Y3dnFlZUVFeXk3MDQ0NTM3
brianel, Agent 027
"Praise the Lord. I may not have everything I desire, but the Lord has come through for what I need."
Hello Brianel:
I try to stay out of these types of debates. While still relatively new to the hobby, you would classify me as a "bells and whistles" type of guy. I love scale units with all of the electronics onboard.
Having said that, I like the passion that you bring to your posts. While others may think you long winded, I find your writing articulate and persuasive. Your writing puts mine to shame. You and I may be at different ends of the spectrum regarding what we like in the hobby, but I agree with you regarding the necessity for Lionel & others to create more less expensive options. Only through consistent sales volume (and profits) will the manufacturers have enough money to continue to develop more sophisticated products. So, if they can meet your needs and desires, I think it will also allow them to meet mine.
So, keep the posts coming! It is the passion from individuals like you that allows this hobby to grow.
Regards,
John O
Brian: While I've disagreed with you a few times (a few!?!?!) about the direction of toy trains and their future, it's always been a pleasure to discuss things with you. I'm like John O and like the scale/bells and whistles stuff. But I certainly respect your opinion and point of view. My New Year's resolution is a bit different, but discretion prevents me from posting it here
Dep
Virginian Railroad
Guess I'm a bit in the middle here. I like some electronics, but not the whole nine miles. I like uncoupling without the need of an uncoupler between the tracks, but I don't need 258 whistle blows to choose from. I like sounds, but I don't mind 2 chufs per revolution and am not laying awake at night if the chuffs don't synchronise with the wheel movement (up to some point that is).
On the other hand, I like the fandriven smokeunits, the extra marking lights and full siderod assambly. I like the whistle AND bell. I like the diecast trucks and a certain level of detail (that it could work in the way it is showed, not if the drivewheels are exactly to scale.)
Being in such a position, I find the railking line too simple and the low end engines of Lionel to "toy-isch". On the other hand, a premier locomotive with proto 2 or Lionel TMCC doesn't appeal to me either. (too much I need to pay for without using it, and too expensive).
That sticks me in buying old new stock out of the premier line with proto1 and only diesels, since the price I'm prepared to pay for one engine is about $250. Untill I discovered the Berkshire and Mikado steamers Lionel makes. Full driverod assambly, interesting wheelarrangement, good looking and with a simple version of sounds for a normal amount of money..
There is a lack of "in between models". A nice looking, detailled engine but not fully to scale and not all the bells and whistles, but some, for a normal price.
And that's the thing which is hard to find. A good looking locomotive, but not fully to scale, not fully loaded with sounds and for a nice pricetag. If you want to go simple, every manufacturer has simple engines to choose from and sometimes those are real (though tiny) beauties (docksider and plymouth). On the other hand, if you want a full scale, top of the notch engine, you also have loads to choose from, fully loaded and every rivet on the right place. But you pay for that.
If you want basic sounds, nice but not necessary to scale detail and flywheel equipped motors without cruise control, you have a difficult time to find one. Proto 1 units (premier steamers) are too expensive, railkings too simple..
I think Lionel turned in a nice road with their not to scale Berkshires and Mikado's, with some sound (railsounds) a nice detail and a friendly pricetag, but also the trainman line of Atlas promises a lot. A bit of both worlds with a pricetag not hurting your wallet is in my case the best option. No mercedes, no lada, but a suzuki.
Daan,
You might consider Williams. Decent price and decent detail. If I want to add sound to one I just add a trainsounds car (about $100).
Jim H
Daan:
What do you think of MTH's Rail King Scale? Many Rail King Scale diesels were former premier line units. Or, how about their Imperial line? I think the detail on the Imperial units is quite nice. If the Imperial units were scale sized, I would save a lot of money...
Lionel has also come out with some standard size steamers without TMCC in order to keep the price down. The detail on those units also appears to be quite nice.
Took the words out of my mouth with the Imperial/scale comment John MTH is really starting to "blur the lines" between scale and non-scale trains. I have a NYC F3 ABA that is a RailKing yet is STILL scale.
Check it out:
http://www.railking1gauge.com/detail.asp?item=30-2631-1
Brian,
You bring a valuable and interesting perspective to this forum and others. I always find myself either agreeing or disagreeing with your various points of view. What ever direction you take, I look forward to the viewpoints you might take this year.
Regards, Roy
Thanks guys. To deviate for a moment... I won't go into a sermon on my beliefs here, but I do want to illustrate something. I was checking out some Christian websites on day, and stumbled upon a live chat/forum and I thought it would be interesting to follow. I quickly got turned off though by the argumentative tone of the participants. I really like intelligent discussion backed up with thoughtful points and views.
And then I got to thinking about the train forums. And I know the point has been mentioned before. Then I got to thinking how discouraging some of our discussions could do the same thing to newcomers to the hobby and to the forum. Intelligent discussions are one thing, but sometimes we all let our own views and preferences get in the way. I think this happens more on the OGR forum, not because it is a bad forum, but because there are more members, more posts and more adults who prefer the scale, more expensive stuff.
Years ago a fellow train shop owner told me (back when I was involved in the retail side of the hobby) that EVERY SINGLE sale was important... be it toy train or realistic scale model. I'm sure the companies like Lionel are coming to this conclusion too.
I'm really not so down on the scale, high end as I sometimes appear to be. I do get annoyed with the lack of understanding with how much it costs to bring these new trains to market. And the continual demands of "some" fans of these types of trains. The "me, me. me" apsect of the train hobby is as ugly to me as it is in general aspects of our culture.
I really do believe that once someone is INTERESTED in the hobby, the strong potential exists for those new customers to step up. I've made the analogy before that many kids get a cheap beginner guitar as a gift.... the list is a lengthy one including John Lennon and Neil Young. One that youngster shows interest in the guitar, the parents will probably be far more willing to step up with a better guitar. Not many guitarists started with a Les Paul, a Martin or Guild solidtop or a Taylor custom.
Same is true for the train hobby. So the importance of decent affordable starter products, in my mind, is imperitative. Some will stay there, and some will step up. Those who step up may eventually end up here on this forum, with desires to learn more, get advice and tips. And that is the very best thing this forum can do.
Truth be told, most of the starter type modern trains being made today are pretty decent as compared to some of the cheaper low end sets of years ago. And so long as you don't expect too much, the BEEP is as good a loco as a Williams as is a K-Line S-2 as is a MTH Scale Railking loco as is a top line Lionel. They all serve differing needs and aspects of the market. I like my K-Line S-2's... but given what they are and what I paid for them, I don't expect them to look or run like more expensive locos. But they suit my wants just fine. A BEEP will never run like a command controled loco, but it doesn't cost nearly as much either. So it serves its purpose.
When a new poster here asks a question on what kind of loco to buy, they're not seeking a brand biased arguement or negative put downs. I think they want thoughtful comments from those who own and run those products and whether they are happy with them. Then that person will make their own choice and decision, just as well all have.
This hobby is a GREAT hobby for a family, be it a dad with his boys or even a single mom. I'd like for folks to come here and realize that. I can be expensive, but it doesn't have to be, if you compromise.
So I for one, will try harder to do my part to this end result. I don't always feel welcome on OGR, but I'd sure like it if folks felt welcome here.
@jhcomet, that's also an option, thanks.
@Brianel, in the end all model trains are toys serving only one purpose: giving pleasure to the one who buys it. It's in the same row as a sports car. You don't need it to stay alive, but it gives detail to it.
For a newcomer in the hobby it must be pretty difficult to make up ones mind. About every manufacturer has a huge varaity of starter sets with completely different options ranging from $100 to far above $2500 dollars, all different track systems, different ways to control etc..
Because of that it can also be interesting for starters to read about high end TMCC machines, since those machines are sometimes included in starter sets and when buying a simple set, they can read what possibilities are offered in train land. Not everyone starts with a small, cheap set, some people start with postwar from a grandfather, some start with a high end tmcc equipped set with a scale locomotive and tmcc crane.
In my opinion it does serve a purpose to talk about high end models and differences between versions of protosound etc as long as it doesn't get involved in every post. For the ones being in the hobby for a longer period discussing quality, possibilities and prices is also interesting.
It's all a matter of balance and it's not a matter of life and death. In the end it's just toys we're talking about.
Being rather new to the train hobby, only a year, after a few years hiatis, I welcome your discussions.
Having only a few early post war trains, my eyes are wandering toward the dangling carrot of audio, and realism. I enjoy discussions regarding the other products out there, a few I didn't know existed.
You, as a part of this forum provide informative value to any purchase, I am planning, and welcome your comments.
I agree, one of the most difficult things to do is to keep everything interesting for the sages, and welcomming, safe, and informative for the new people. (sidebar: We have the same issue at church) Most of which is happening here, that's why I stay.
There is an enormous amount of information out there, from manufacturers, forums, and blogs, an ever increasing quantity of product, and fewer funds to spend on these products. This forum is invaluable for all levels.
Thank you,
Kurt
daan wrote: Guess I'm a bit in the middle here. There is a lack of "in between models". A nice looking, detailled engine but not fully to scale and not all the bells and whistles, but some, for a normal price.
Guess I'm a bit in the middle here.
That's where I'm at. I have a small layout, the largest curve being O48. Yet I'm also big on great looking scenics. I recently went TMCC for the odd reason of wanting my passenger car lights on constant power at all times (better to see my 100+ MTH hand-painted figures inside of them). I had to go to a '01 Lionel catalog to get a semi-scale TMCC K4 and GG1 to run. Joe
Doug Murphy 'We few, we happy few, we band of brothers...' Henry V.
Now this thread has evolved enough that I can feel okay in posting. To me forums are great places to get and give information and great places to expouse ones own opinions on various matters. In the process of doing the latter one may find several other that have similar opinions or beliefs. Great for those folks. But others will surely not have similar opinions. But is that bad? Not really. Polite debates are great places to learn things for all parties. The participants share their reasons or opinions and we can all consider them, agree with them, or not agree with them as the case may be. That process is valuable though in that we have stirred our own gray matter. Maybe my login doesn't bring a smile to most "L" folks faces. I have never felt extremely welcome here but I'm sure I would be less welcome elsewhere. And whether I feel welcome doesn't stop me from trying to share what I know on occasion (which isn't much yet) or what I believe on some issues.
I remember responding to Brianel's posting one time that placed what then seemed to me inordinate blame on the hobbyists who wanted all the bells and whistles on everything. Over the course of reading other's replies I grew in understanding of his concerns and I do agree with many of them. If we don't agree on everything then let's work with what we do agree with. And really at the end of the day or "day-bate"... we can go to our circle or dogbone or point to point of track and runs trains!
Train ON
Jim
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