I am trying to see how small I can make a full featured layout. I have decided to go with about 5 layers of track spiraling up from a 4x4 board. Each spiral will have a 6 inch rise, every other spiral will be hidden in the mountain. The 027 tracks will spiral up a mountain (think polar express mountain picture). All of the tracks will line up on the "operators side". Think 6pm. The front (opposite) "viewers" side (think 12pm) will have steps because each pair of spirals will different straights. The bottom track will have 1.5 straights, the next tier 1 straight, the final tier .5 straits located at 3pm and 9pm. I am using 027 track and a 6% grade. I am only planning on short three or four lightweight cars(marx or 027 cars) with two engines (RMT Beeps) per train...maybe even push pull. At the top and the bottom tier there is an interior passing siding to move engines around to reverse the train. NO unattended operation is necessary in this point to point climb, I want to always be at the throttle.
Am I crazy? Could this work as long as my engines are low geared (like Beeps, K-line plymouth switchers)?
Jim H
man..I'd hate to be in the real engine with that...
LOL..the other night, it was raining..and the fireman student forgot to turn on the sanders on a 1.5% grade..only a couple miles long..but loaded coal train with crappy power up front. We ended up at 1mph for over an hour!
I had 5%+ grades on my previous layout, and the only engines that had problems were Lionel 1666's (no magnetraction) and Beeps. The Beeps could handle maybe 3 or so light modern boxcars before struggling and/or stalling (singly). Doubled up they could pull @ 8 cars, 10 light cars was pushing it, and they seemed to be fighting each other some. I believe the problem was engine weight related - more downforce = better traction, and not gearing. Williams, magnetrac Lionels, and the K-Line Allegheny had no noticeable issues with 10+ heavier cars like the 3469 ore dumps - although the cars had issues with stringlining on 34" & 42" curves (not a pretty sight when loaded with coal).
If you're going to stick with only a few cars, my guess is you'll be ok.
Lionel collector, stuck in an N scaler's modelling space.
It gives a challange, and that's an extra part of the fun! You have to think about putting extra power up front to get the job done, just like in the real world.
Due to traction tires and magnetraction our toytrains have gigantic pulling power in comparison to the big brothers in real life. Therefore if you want to rebuild the same challanges on your layout you'll have to make it a bit more extreme.. A 6% grade is such a thing. Not impossible, but you'll have to use extra power to get the trains up the mountain!
Allan Miller wrote:Yes!
Wait until the track gets a little dirty and nothing will climb that grade.
Celebrating 18 years on the CTT Forum.
Buckeye Riveter......... OTTS Charter Member, a Roseyville Raider and a member of the CTT Forum since 2004..
Jelloway Creek, OH - ELV 1,100 - Home of the Baltimore, Ohio & Wabash RR
TCA 09-64284
Hello all,
Because of your excellent feedback I decided to do a grade test with my locomotives. I used a K-line 4-6-2 Christmas loco(Cab 115), a few beeps (cabs 204, 274, 1224, and 2005) and a K-line Plymouth switcher (PS). The PS has no traction tire. All the beeps worked best with the traction tire in the rear. Beeps with new traction tires pulled better than ones with old tires.
On the straight grade I could go very steep. Even with a 21% grade my 115 would pull its tender plus a full train. A “full” train consisted of three K-line cars (O27) and a lighted RMT caboose (LC). However, on the down slope in reverse the 115 was very jerky in operation. One of the beeps with a new traction tire could pull the LC and one 027 car up 21% without slipping!
Two beeps pulling together could pull the full train up a 10% grade. However, the duet could only pull one 027 car and LC up a 15% grade.
The Plymouth switcher could only climb a 15% grade and that without any cars.
With a 5.2% grade most beeps could pull 3 cars and the LC. One of the traction tires was bulging though. Double heading the beeps increased the full train grade potential to 10.4%.
Next I wondered what would happen if the rise was on 027 curves. I limited the grade to about 6% (5 inch rise over one circle of 027 track). Again the K-line 462 pulled a full train no problem. Here the Beeps ran into different problems. Because of the fixed 4 wheel frame they tended to “jump” off the track under load. Also, sometimes one of the drive wheels would lift off the track causing the beep to spin. The PS excelled here because of its short wheel base. I think it struggled up spinning with a full train! Because of the above results I decided to go with a helix made with 031 curves.
With 031 curves and a 5” rise (5.2% grade) everything was much easier. The PS could struggle up the grade pulling three cars and LC with lots of wheel spin. Slipping was allowed because there is no traction tire to spin off. The Beeps could pull the full train even alone with just a hint of spin. Duet power made it up the grade no problem pulling a full train.
Conclusion. For my mountain railroad experience I am going to go with 031 curves, duet power, and a 5.2% grade.
Just found on the web. The Saluda grade is 4-5% and that was a full size standard gauge railroad!
Plus my mom has a place right near Saluda!
My mountain idea with 5% grade and 031 curves might just work!
No, its a challenge and that's always interesting to overcome and find workarounds for. It'll make you learn a lot more about getting the best out of your rolling stock and motive power. If you were playing shunting (switching) challenges, especially with someone else, it adds all sorts of handicap possibilities.
I want to make a silly narrow gauge stretch at some time, using ridiculously tight curves and humpbacked bridges after Rowland Emmetts 'Oystermouth and Much Twittering Railway" (see the middle and right photos from the second row at this site :- http://www.009society.com/gal11.htm )
So I'm always interested in hearing about other peoples attempts at unusual grades and their solutions. Adding those tiny super magnets or perhaps using track power to energize an electromagnet wound round an axle, is something that I'm going to experiment with. For me the whole joy of trains is the 'imagineering' as Disney calls it.
Jim H:
Certainly most hobbyist would vote against what you are doing. However what you are building DOES sound like fun!!! Your experiments were obviously well planned and a great idea to do instead of just jumping into building you "Polar Express mountain line".
I would suggest one small thing, even on your 5.2% grade. I have had a 5.6% grade in the past and I experiencing problems at the top and the bottom.
At the top the issue occurs when transitioning from the slope to the level. When the engine ges on the level and the car behind it is still climbing, the couplers can separate. I've had that happen. The same can occur AT THE TOP, even when you are reversing direction and heading back down. I've had that happen too.
The issue at the bottom for me was with me steam engines. When the engine was just getting reading to start up the slope the cow catcher would make contact with the sloped track and create a short.
The standard solution and recommendation is to create a gradual transition at the bottom and top.
Good luck with your fun track plan!
mickey4479 wrote:I have a 2.5% grade on my layout and I only did it after extreme anxiety. In my humble opinion, I would just create another stretch of track that is higher than the other track so you can have bridges and so forth.
I'm with you Mick................................Tim
A word of warning familiar to mountain climbers - going up is much easier than coming down!
On my 4x8 layouts, I used 5.5% grades with 027 track. I also have mostly postwar and MPC-era locomotives. These locomotives will free-wheel - that is if I push them by hand, the wheels will turn and reverse-drive the gears and motor. On a downgrade, if the push of the cars exceeds the force needed to free-wheel, you now have an unstoppable train - shutting off the power does no good. Don't ask me how I know this!
As I analyzed the results on my 027 curves, I realized I had discovered a new space launch mechanism for toy trains. Usually, it only took 3 cars at a reasonable speed at the summit for the launch to be successful. Moving the grade to 031 curves resolved the problem for the length of train I was running (5 cars max). One of my current layout design rules is no grades on 027 curves.
Until we have a functional brake system on our toy trains, forewarned is forearmed. I strongly recommend you run some downgrade tests, too.
Theoretically, TMCC/DCS/DCC can be programmed to provide reverse pulses to a can motor to serve as an engine "brake", using back EMF as a sensor. Since I don't use these systems, I don't know whether the existing cruise controls can actually provide reverse pulses. If not already implemented, Mike needs to contact my patent attorney before he even thinks about putting this in DCS.
yours truly
Fred W
inventor of the toy train space launch track - or at least 1st to recognize the potential
fwright wrote:A word of warning familiar to mountain climbers - going up is much easier than coming down!......Until we have a functional brake system on our toy trains, forewarned is forearmed. I strongly recommend you run some downgrade tests, too.....
......Until we have a functional brake system on our toy trains, forewarned is forearmed. I strongly recommend you run some downgrade tests, too.....
In my tests I did run both up and down. Since (unlike my Lionel Starter Set Loco's) none of the test engines "freewheel", I only run three-four cars per train, and the engines are fairly low geared it was not a problem. However, I have done a few launches myself when running my Lionel starter set steamer with several cars on downgrades!
Modeling the "Fargo Area Rapid Transit" in O scale 3 rail.
I have all sorts of grades - inadvertently -- on my layout due to the uneven rock fill the insulation boards are resting upon. I kind of like (and hate) them as operational things to keep an eye on - they make me keep a hand on the throttle, but make it hard to have something small like a hand cart or very light like one of my home-made Birneys run by itself. That said, my engines with traction tires are champs at handling everything. The non-traction tired engines can handle anything running light. I also have found running in certain directions on certain grades makes a difference...
Thor, I love Emmett - one of my favorite books is one of all his railway cartoons.
Doug Murphy 'We few, we happy few, we band of brothers...' Henry V.
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