For Christmas, I received my 2nd set of Williams F-3's. My first set was the Santa Fe versions, which I posted about last summer. The second set I received for Christmas, is the Rio Grande version. I also received a set of MTH passenger cars to go with the engines. I decided to break them in together, as that is the way they would be run for the most part. Having 6 Williams diesel engines, I thought I would post some thoughts and information about them.
1. Upon reading the instructions, it stated that the dummy unit needed oiling, as Williams doesn't oil them from the factory, for shipping reasons. Good advice. I oiled the dummy engine at the points specified. The instructions also say the power unit is good to go for 10 hours, and then needs lubed. Mine appeared to be "bone dry", so I lubed it. Same as my previous F-3's.
2. The first run is always predictable now. There is a strange rubbing sound going around turns, and the engine needs many voltage changes to keep it working. I always try to run at minimum speed, which may be part of the problem. The engine is jerky for about 20 minutes. I give it a little more power, and run it for about an hour at that voltage. By then it is racing around the layout, and begin backing up on the voltage. After about 4 hours of running, the engine seems to find its groove, and all is well.
3. Paint and decoration. So perfect it is painful! With my first Williams F-3, I bought it to repaint, but it was too perfect! It never got repainted! With the Rio Grande version, the same problem. More prototypical with a silver painted chassis, but with the postwar look, and flawless paint, no repainting for me. The engines have all the details of the 1948 Lionel versions, including ladders, portholes, and grab irons. If I were looking for a postwar or MPC version, I wouldn't have these, so Williams was the way to go. The pilot is different from the Lionel version, which viewed from the side, is a negative. There is a huge gap between the pilot and the front wheel. I can ignore it, but it is a focal point that can't be ignored.
4. Price. Justrains is selling these for $235.00 with free shipping. Doubt a postwar, or even an MPC version would be that cheap. With the Santa Fe versions, I questioned the pricing when conpared to the recent released MTH reproduction with DCS. Full retail for full retail, the MTH version won out. "Street prices", on the other hand, make the Williams versions a clear winner, unless you have to have DCS. Right now, even adding TMCC to the Williams versions is a pretty good deal.
5. Overall impression. If you are a collector of postwar Lionel, or feel a "not so good" postwar version should be restored, this isn't your engine. If you want a nice reproduction, that runs well with a little "break-in" time, and in the case of the Rio Grande engines, want an A-A combination, instead of the A-B combo., These engines are a good buy. No battery damage, no worry about the paint getting ruined trying to clean them, no search for new decals, or in the worst case, no need to look for a professional painter to restore them. I admire people who can afford to fix up an old engine to like new condition, but I can't, so Williams is a nice alternative for me, anyway.
Thanks, had thought about these as I am now looking for motive power for some MTH Wabash passenger cars that I got. I may buy some in the future, but from what I read of your well thought comments, I will pass for now.
Dennis
TCA#09-63805
I bought a set of Williams Santa Fe F3s a little over a month ago. You are correct in stating that the paint and graphics are flawless. But Right out of the box, my F3s had a sound problem. No whistle when the train was running on 9 volts or higher. It had to be repaired. That was the second Williams in a row that I needed to have work done on. Still, good looking, and great runners without the hassles you mentioned regarding the post war versions.
Jim
Modeling the Baltimore waterfront in HO scale
Well, it has been a couple days now, and I have been running the engine every night. It has really smoothed up now. For fun, while the engine, dummy, and 4 MTH passenger cars were running, I put my voltmeter across the track. The voltmeter reads about 2.68. That seems really low. On the outer loop I am running the Williams Santa Fe F-3 AA set, and 6 MTH passenger cars, and it read 5.74 volts. I think I will put my postwar 2343's on the track, and see what they read. Results to follow.
It seems odd it ran rough out of the box at first. The three Williams engines I bought (no F3's) ran silky smooth out of the box.
Voltage readings are not very good indicators of performance. An ammeter is what you really want.
2343's are lower geared than the Williams units and will read higher voltage (and draw more amps)
Those voltages do seem very low. What kind of transformer and what kind of voltmeter are you using?
Bob Nelson
I am powering the layout with a modern-era zw transformer, with a 180 watt brick to each loop. I was using a Craftsman digital/analog meter. The same multi meter read track voltage at about 17.75 volts, with nothing running and throttle all the way up. These readings could very well be off, it's just what I have consistantly come up with. I do try and run the trains right above "stall speed", as I don't like to run trains all that fast.
As I stated, I have 6 Williams diesels. 3 of them seemed to need a lot of break-in time, and 3 of them were smooth right out of the box. 4 of them had an odd "rubbing" noise coming from them. 1 of those was because all the windshield plastic had fallen and was rubbing the flywheel. On 2 of them the sound just went away after about an hour of run time. All horn and bells have worked fine, although at different volumes.
I would also like to add that I have nothing against postwar F-3's. I have nothing against modern scale F-3's. I would love to be able to afford either one. Williams fits the budget a little better, so that is what I got. Williams engines are good runners, but they aren't perfect all the time. Sometimes they need a little "tweeking" to be outstanding runners.
All Lionel all the time.
Okiechoochoo
On average, I can make the Williams engines "crawl" around the layout with the new ZW. Slow speed performance is not a problem with the exception of one O-22 switch, which the engines seem to need a little more juice to get across. The train is also wrapped around two O-31 curves at the time. I can get my Williams NW-2 switcher, with 6 MPC-era cars, so slow, you can here the individual wheels going over the track connections. None of my other Williams will move quite that slow.
The new ZW made a difference over the old transformers I was using, but I think any transformer that startes at zero volts will show the same result.
I have not re-wired any of my Williams engines. Never saw the point. With any transformer that starts at 0 volts (almost all postwar transformers start at 5-6 volts.), they seems to start slow enough.
I run most of the time with the cab-1. Having had the week off, I have done a lot of experimenting, and have been running with the throttles only. Performance seems more refined with the throttle levers than with the cab-1. The speed steps with the cab-1 don't seems "sensitive" enough for slow speed running, aka: The engine will stall going around a curve with a switch in it, but the next step up seems to be too much. At this point I fine tune with the throttle. I think this is backwards of most peoples experience, but it is what is happening to me.
Length of time also seems to make a difference. After about 45 minutes, I need to nudge the throttle up a little. I have the opposite problem when running a modern Lionel pull-mor motor. After about 5 minutes, I have to lower the throttle setting to keep the engine from racing off. This occurs with any of my transformers, so I don't blame the ZW.
As far as transformers go. The new Lionel ZW seems to be the best one I have used for fine-tuning slow speed operation, and keeping that speed for a long duration. This is compared to my old transformers, Trollier dual contols, an RW and a 1033. The Z-4000, or MRC may do the same thing, I have no experience with them, though.
One last thought. I have one bottom of the line MTH PS-2 loco. with cruise. No engine I have compares to how slow this thing will run in conventional operation. If you are looking for "cruise control" slow, I can't get any Williams to do that.
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