Modern era Lionel GP-20 Chessie diesel #8463 motor problem?

[Anonymous]

Hello, I have purchased a Lionel # 8463 Chessie GP-20 diesel locomotive at a local train swap meet. Supposedlly NOS? in original box, very clean! However when it runs, it is very noisy. and will not run well. it has a very growly sound and moves very erraticlly. It runs well in reverse, but does not run well forward. at times it seems to run fairly smooth in forward by it self, but not always. if you try to pull cars in forward, it seems to labor very hard and noisy. sometimes it will pull slowly, and other times not at all?? if I turn it around it pulls very well and fairly quiet. Is there any known problems of the Lionel pulmor motors??? this is a 4 wheel drive model, not 8. even if I push it forward with my hand, it does not want to move well in forward???? any ideas??? Thanks for your time. Sarge

[1688torpedo]

Hello Sarge!   The GP-20 should have been taken apart so that the old factory Grease can be cleaned out & new Grease & oil added to the Worm Gear,Armature Shaft, & Axle Bushings. Anything that is new old stock should never be run at all until all of the above is taken care of. A couple of weeks ago another fellow made a post about a Santa-FE F-3 in mint Condition that he tried to run.However, He stripped a gear on the engine as it was also new stock & the old grease needed cleaning out as it hardens up with age & almost becomes like a glue & this is what happened with your GP-20. The old grease hardened up & your engine did not run well. After the old grease is cleaned out & new Grease is added to the Gears & Oil on the Axles, Your GP-20 will literally run like new. If you need anything else, Let us know. Take Care.

[lionelsoni]

I don't know this specific locomotive; but from your question it sounds like it may have a vertically mounted universal motor, with the worm integral with the motor shaft.  This arrangement requires thrust bearings to keep the armature in the right place.  Otherwise the worm tries to screw itself into the truck going one way and screw itself out going the other way.  When one thrust bearing is working and the other absent or defective, the locomotive will typically run okay one way and poorly the other way.

See whether you can observe the position of the armature as the motor runs.  It should not move up or down more than a very little as you reverse direction if the thrust bearings are okay.

[1688torpedo]

Hello All!    Bob- The Motor in Sarge's Engine is based on the old 600 series that Lionel used in the sheet-metal frame NW-2s from the 60's. They do not use Thrust Bearing's & Washer's like the F-3, GG-1 & similar Motor's from the 50s. What happened here was that Sarge ran a New Old Stock Engine with the original factory grease that had hardened up over the last 32 years & the Motor ran poorly as a result. All he has to do is clean out the old grease & use fresh grease & oil & the engine will run fine.(Hopefully,none of the Gears stripped while he was running it.) Take Care all.

[Buckeye Riveter]

Keith, do you know if the LaBelle White Lithium Grease hardens when items are in storage as yo described above?  Thanks.

[1688torpedo]

Hello Buckeye!   I would guess that over a period of time that the White Labelle Lithium Grease would most certainly harden. My rule of thumb is if I buy any new old stock engines I take them apart & clean out the old grease & oil & re-grease all moving parts. I did this with a San Francisco Trolley Car that Lionel made in 1988( I had bought this as a Christmas Present for my Nephew two years ago) Anyway, The old grease had hardened & was like a glue. Cleaned out the old grease & did everything mentioned above & the Trolley runs like a Champ now. I do this with everything that happens to be old new stock or if it has been sitting in a box for years I will not run it until I check it out & see if everything is okay. Take Care

[Anonymous]

I would just like to say thank you to all who replied to my question. I've never thought of that. Thanks again!!!!!!!, Sarge

[Buckeye Riveter]

Keith, as one of my TV Heroes, Columbo used to say, "Just one more thing."

What are you using to clean out the old grease?

[Anonymous]

Sarge,

I agree with anything published so far, but perhaps can add something. After you clean out the old grease (if in fact it is waxey or really solidly gunky) take a look at the top of the brushplate -- the plastic piece (quite possibly white) at the top of the motor.

At its highest point, directly above the top end of the shaft, there is a quite small screw with a recess for an Allen wrench, the L-shaped six-sided wrenchs that are often used in "set screws." This screw takes a very small wrench indeed.

The bottom of this screw protrudes downward through the brushplate and rests on the top of the rotating armature shaft. The tolerences here are critical. In his post above, Bob Nelson (lionelsoni)) has described what happens when this screw is mal-adjusted. Its primary purpose is to limit the upward travel of the main motor shaft. If the shaft moves either up or down too much, the gear on the bottom of the shaft won't mesh properly with the spur gear on the axle that drives the wheels; in other words, the gears will "jam," partially or even fully.

The action of the motor is such that when turning forward it tends to force the armature shaft in one direction (up or down -- I can't remember which) and when running in reverse the force is in the opposite direction.

By tightening or loosening this screw (just a hair is all it takes) you can go from a motor that may not run at all in one direction and will be "sloppy" in the other, to vice-versa. The goal, of course, is an adjustment where the shaft gear is centered on the spur gear, with only a very small amout of up or down "play" or "gear-lash." I think this is likely to be the source of your problem, and the only solution is to adjust it by turning the screw back and forth a little until a proper meshing of the gears is achieved. (I alway put a tiny dab of grease on the top of the shaft, because the screw make direct metal-to-metal contact at that point. One doesn't want to use so much grease as to have it run down onto the copper commutator face. When it runs equally well in forward and reverse you've got it. Properly adjusted, the screw does not eliminate vertical movement of the armature/shaft/gear, but it limits it to a few thousands of an inch -- just enough to let you feel and hear a slight click-click-click as you move the armature up and down. In a phrase: free but not sloppy.

Other things to check, are the cleanliness of the bush wells, the movement of the brushes within those wells, the condition of the brushes themselves, and the brush springs. If you decide to replace the brushes, replace the springs at the same time. If by any chance the set-screw threads in the brush-plate are stripped out, and/or the screw is missing, you will need new parts.

In my opinion, the 8030-100 Motor Truck was not Lionel's best design, but it can me made to work. The symptoms you describe are exacerbated by overloading the locomotive. Ten modern lightweight freight cars is about its limit. 

An exploded drawing is available at the http://www.lionel.com/ site, under customer service. I don't see any thrust washers in that diagram. I think "the set screw is everything."

[1688torpedo]

Hello Buckeye!   I use Rubbing Alchohol & lots of Q-tips.Plus, A wire or Toothpick to get out any stubborn residue left behind. Take Care.

[oldskooltrainman]

I like to share my train fixes. This one works every time!

Five easy steps to a perfectly reliable diesel Pulmore motor.

1.       Move the armature commutator closer to the brush holders. Place a .020 - .030” stainless washer in the motor bottom bearing support. Adjust motor end play to .020. This will provide a more reliable bearing for the armature and keep the commutator closer to the brushes.

2.       Eliminate most resistance from the motor brushes. Add a pair of 1/16” X ¾” copper braids to the existing brushes. Solder each braid to the spring retainer on the brush holder top. Lift the brush spring. Install the braid to cover the top of the existing brush and form a ¼” loop above the brush holder. Notch a pair of worn brushes on one end with a jewelers saw .030 deep. Install the notched brush on top of the copper braid and place the spring end into the notch. Insure that the braid is located in the spring slot in the brush holder. Move the armature up and down to ensure the brushes move freely in the holders.

3.       Eliminate most current from the E-units tiny contacts. Add a 10 amp miniature relay to the motor circuit. Install a 10 amp DPDT, 12 volt, ¾” squared relay onto the rear lamp post using double sticky tape. Install relay leads up. Wire one relay coil lead to the two E-unit reverse leads that show ground during reverse. Wire the other relay coil lead to a 1004 diode (plus side) and a 35 MFD, 25 volt capacitor. Wire the negative 35MFD cap lead to the frame. Wire the other diode end to the AC supply. Wire the relay common leads to the commutator brush holders. Wire the two sets of NO and NC relay contacts cross-wired. Wire the two cross-wired contacts to the AC supply. You have now created a 10 amp reversing circuit that takes all the current away from the tiny E-unit contacts and switches the main current through the 10 amp relay.

4.       Improve contact resistance to the track pickup rollers. Solder a 1.5”, 24 gauge, Teflon insulated wire to each track roller frame bottom edge. Use minimal solder for good connection. Solder each wire to the copper roller spring running the wire along the motor frame. Ensure the roller frame solder does not interfere with the track roller movement.

5.       Install shims to the wheel axle bearing opposite the geared wheels. This brings the drive gears into better alignment and allows the gear train to run smoother. Use 1/8^th” round ‘E’ clips to do this without removing the wheels. Place the “rounded” side of the E-clip towards the bronze bearing to provide better wearing conditions.

 

We now have a motor that is better connected to the rest of the circuitry, We have 10 amps of available current to the motor and we have a much more accurate positioning of all the moving parts that will resist wear for many hours of run time to come. I am happy to supply more information going forward. Lionel made a good train for the masses. We just need to bring the design to a higher level.