Prewar train question

[4kitties]

Hi all, I just bought my first prewar train - a Lionel O gauge 249E with 2 607's and a 608.  I'm a bit confused by the wording in David Doyle's excellent book - he writes that the 249E was also available in black starting in 1937.  After reading that I'm unsure during what years the engine was available in gunmetal - 1936 only, or also in 1937.  Can anyone help?

In any case, the train is a beauty considering its age.  To paraphrase Yoda:  "When 70 years old I am, look this good I will not!"  And it runs like a Swiss watch.  Uh-oh, this could be the start of something, after told my wife for years that I would never be interested in tinplate trains...

Thanks,

Joel

[Jumijo]

Hi all, I just bought my first prewar train - a Lionel O gauge 249E with 2 607's and a 608.  I'm a bit confused by the wording in David Doyle's excellent book - he writes that the 249E was also available in black starting in 1937.  After reading that I'm unsure during what years the engine was available in gunmetal - 1936 only, or also in 1937.  Can anyone help? . . .

Joel, "also available in black starting in 1937" would imply that at least in 1937, you had a choice of blck or gunmetal.

Jim

[envfocus]

I have the Lionel catalogs from 1936 through 1941.  The 249E was only presented in the 1936 and 1937 catalogs.  In both cases, the descriptions stated that the finish was in gun-metal.  The engine and tender could be purchased separately or as part of two sets offered by Lionel in 1936 and 1937.  The passenger cars sets changed from 1936 to 1937.  In the 1936 catalog, the passenger set (called the "294E Distant Control Passenger Set") included two 607 illuminated pullmans and one 608 illuminated observation car.  In 1937, the set changed to the "236E Remote Control Passenger Set" and included a 602 illuminated baggage car, 601 illuminated observation car, and the 600 illuminated pullman.  Both sets were available with or without whistle capability.  Both sets came with track forming a small oval.  In the "set" descriptions, there is no mention of what the finish is for the 249E engine and tender were, but the illustrations look more like gloss black than gun-metal grey.  The cost for the 249E passenger set with the 607s and 608 in 1936 was $12.75 (without whistle tender) and $16.25 (with a whistle tender).  Enjoy your prewar train!

[phillyreading]

envfocus,

I have a 249E locomotive with a 2225T tender and a few freight cars. Greenberg's guide doesn't list this tender number in the 2006 price guide but I am led to beleive that this is the original tender as the set is my dad's.  Thought that I would ask as you have the Lionel catalog for that time period.  Couplers seem to be 1938 style with electromagnets inside to open.

Lee F.

[envfocus]

Lee (phillyreading)

 

For sure your set is not cataloged.  That’s not to say your father didn’t buy it as a set since Lionel sold many uncatologued sets, but the 249E was only listed in catalogues with the 265T or 265TW tender.  For sure the “automatic” box couplers with the magnet were not available until 1938.  Lionel added the number 2 in front of their car numbering system to denote this change.  So, the 800 freight car series available prior to 1938 became the 2800 freight car series.  I have to run right now, so I’ll look later today to see where the 2225T tender shows up in any catalog I have.  Also, looking at the numbers could further refine the age of the freight cars.  If they are stamped, then they are from 1940s, if they are on nickel plates, then they are from 1938 to 1940.  It would seem to make more sense that if they are from the same set, that the freight cars have the nickel plated numbers, but again I’d believe your father over me!!!  If I find out anything else, I’ll add it to this thread later.  Take care.

 

Roger (envfocus)

[envfocus]

To finish up on my last entry, the 2225T tender was offered with more sets in the 1938 catalog than any other.  It was offered as the tender in 5 different sets.  However, thereafter, it was only offered as the tender for the Commodore Vanderbilt Streamliner (Lionel #265).  Now, it appears that the 2225T was formerly the 265T.  The 265T was the tender for the Commodore Vanderbilt prior to 1938.  The only apparent difference between the two was the change in 1938 from latch couplers to the box couplers.  From the pictures in the catalog the 265T was the tender offered with the 249e, so it seems very reasonable that the 2225T would have been the tender for the uncatalogued 249e and prices for it may be estimated by looking at the 265T tender.

[phillyreading]

envfocus,

Thanks for the help!  Here are the other cars in the set; a 2653 hopper, a 2657 caboose with fiquire on back end of caboose(not sure if fiquire is original), a 3659 coal dump car.

Have some other tin plate cars; a 2652 Erie gondola, a 1680 Sunoco tank car, a 1689T tender, a 1679 Baby Ruth box car.  I would appriciate any further help.  Thank you.

Lee F.

[envfocus]

Let me start by saying that my interest lies in the 1920s and 1930s and your pieces begin to fall just outside that range (i.e. 1940s), so take my info with that in mind.  In my opinion, Lionel really began to push a lot of new items at the end of the 1930s.  Too much for me.  For example, by 1940, they offered six different styles of track (O, O-27, 0-72, solid rails, OO-2-rail, and OO-3-rail).  As a result, they had lots of pieces that looked the same, but had different numbers creating too much for my small mind to handle.  Their was some logic too it, but it wasn’t always done consistently.  In general, your 3659 coal car is a good example.  It started out as a 659 Ore Dump car introduced in 1935.  Then, in 1938, Lionel added box automatic couplers, giving it the number 2659.  Then they took that basic design and automated the dumping mechanism, creating your 3659 in 1939.  They also made a 3859 which was simply a little larger than the 3659.  So in general, three digit cars have latch couplers, the equivalent 2000 series cars have box couplers, and 3000 series cars have unique automation.  You’ve listed a number of cars and they all have varied histories.  From their numbers, I’ll assume the 1679 Baby Ruth and the 1680 Sunoco have latch couplers.  Otherwise, they should be numbered 2679 and 2680 respectively.  The Baby Ruth was available from 1933 to 1939.  The Sunoco car went from 1931 to past 1941 (I don’t know how much longer).  The 1689 tender I believe was first offered with the Lionel Jr. sets in 1936.  It then “graduated” up to many of the entry level and bullet trains in 1937 and 1938.  Your 2000 series pieces were all available beginning in 1938 and could be purchased separately or in a number of sets cataloged from 1938 through 1941.  The figure on your caboose was not offered, so someone most of added it on.  The only one I’m unsure of is your 2652 Erie Gondola.  I’m unaware of any Erie paintjob stamped onto this piece.  Prior to 1940, Lionel used plates for numbers and did not begin using rubber stamping on this gondola until 1940.  I’ve only seen gondolas stamped LIONEL or Pennsylvania.  Both are in the 1940 and 1941 catalogs.  Again, my knowledge (which is naturally limited already) falls off even more as you move into the 40s.  Lionel may have offered other stamping that I’m unaware of.   Take care............Roger

[phillyreading]

Roger,

This may sound strange but the 3659 coal dump car has 1938 trucks and couplers on it, found this info in an article in CTT a little while back.  One other odd thing the cars like the 1680 have manual uncoupler in box and hook, I don't have any latch couplers on any pre war that I own.

Thanks again for the info on the pre war Lionel, especially the 2225T tender. Greenberg doesn't list this tender in the pocket price guide that I have, 249E is listed on page 43 but only mentions the 265T or 265W tender.  The Erie gondola is black with an Erie decal on it.

Lee F.

[envfocus]

I should be careful using the term box coupler.  For several years Lionel made cars with box couplers that were still manual.  It wasn't until 1938 that they started to put magnets in them to make them "automatic", so having manual "box" couplers is certainly understandable.  For prewar enthusiasts, the 1934-1938 years are often referred to as the transition years.  Many pieces have a mixture of nickel and brass trim over this time period as well as the latch, manual box, or automatic box couplers.  It was also over this time period that Lionel phased out all Electric Locomotives and offered only Steam.  If you remember the CTT article date, let me know.....................Roger