Reverse Problem: Polar Express CW80 Issue ?

[pgtr]

...or driver error?

I picked up a set from an individual that is apparently un-used Polar or close too it as a gift for some kiddos this XMas. I run postwar so this is the first I've tried a 'modern' engine. I set it up quickly to 'test' it of course. Well the modern engine only occasionally reverses when it wants to... It's very intermittent.

The engine always stops of course. But sometimes it just sits there (over and over again as if stuck in neutral) and sometimes it reverses and sometimes it starts going again in the some direction and sometimes it makes a faint hum and starts to faintly budge in a direction but doesn't actually get going. It's intermittent to put it simply.

When reversing or attempting to - the lights on the cars fade down slowly and fade back up slowly. But the engine frequently 'sits' there. When it runs it runs great. But pushign the reverse button or swinging the power control off and on only seem to affect what it will do in each cycle intermittently. I've tried doing it very slowly, quickly and various pauses or periods of time off or holding the button longer etc. No consistent joy. It's a crap shoot.

Out of curiosity I put just hte engine on my trusty old tube track wired to an LW transformer. WOrks like a charm every time I push the direction button or move the transformer arm to zero and back! It cycles through a neutral position each time too. Flawless!

Is there a problem with this new CW80 power supply? I seem to recall some folks complaining about these a while back but don't recall for sure.

Is there a potential 'driver error'? (I've played with the reverse switch in the cab - it's properly set to on) Is there a technique or best practice I need to be aware of when using the CW80?

This will be given to children to play with so I'd like for it to simply work in  predictable and idiot proof manner preferrably (and hopefully that last bit doesnt' apply to me! :) )

Thanks!

[thor]

Allow me to be the first of many I'm sure, to tell you that your suspicions are probably correct. The CW80 seems to be a cursed unit, some people swear by them but most swear at them. Replace it with almost any decent small power unit, either an MTH or an MRC unit.  I have no experience with them at all but from all I've read on the forum, I wouldnt touch one with a ten foot pole.

MRC - the Model Rectifier Corporation - makes some nice units and I am led to believe that the MTH ones are also reliable.  I have also heard that in some cases the dealership or Lionel will replace faulty CW80 units but I assume you'd have to have all receipts etc. and even then you'd get another CW80, they sure do look nice. 

 

[Jumijo]

Run the whole set on the tube track with the LW transformer. If it runs and acts flawlessly, then you'll know it's the CW80.

Jim

[Joe Hohmann]

The slow "power-up" is a normal feature of the CW80 when you use the "direction" button. From all I've read, this transformer has given many people problems, although the 4 I have work fine. I prefer them to my KW. Joe

[dwiemer]

Either call or email Lionel.  Have your serial number for the transformer ready if they ask.  In my case they didn't and just sent the new CW80, no questions asked.  I think it is good customer service, though it is a shame that they have had to replace so many units.

Dennis

[Jumijo]

I would think Lionel is working on a new transformer to replace the CW80. I wouldn't be surprised to see a new unit available in the near future.

Jim

[phillyreading]

If you don't have a receipt for the set consider the CW-80 a paper weight and buy a Z1000 transformer by MTH, has power and reverse features and horn & whistle features too, and enuff power for most trains. 

Have heard of a problem or two with MRC transformers, not for sure.  

Lee F.

[lionelsoni]

It has been reported that the CW80 leaks a little current even when set to zero output.  This can fool a high-impedance electronic e-unit into not cycling.  Some folks have reported success with placing a load like an incandescent lamp across the transformer's output, to keep the off voltage close to zero.  (I have never seen a CW80, myself.)

[pgtr]

Well the train runs flawlessly on my tube track with my postwar transformers.

Also for kicks I manually connected and disconnected one of the wires to the track leaving the transformer turned up. It actually worked just fine. That would suggest a simple momentary switch NC installed on one of the wires would likely work fine as a substitute direction switch.

The one downside to installing a button or replacing with a non-Lionel is that as a 'gift' the modification would kinda stick out. First I'll give Lionel a call...

Thanks for the sanity check everyone!

[riverrailfan]

This common with the CW80. My sons Thomas set came with a terminal section that had a light bulb installed in the side of the track. This adds a extra load to the CW80 to drop the voltage to zero to allow the E-Unit to switch. The slow voltage off and on is normal for the CW80. In the automotive industry we call thia fade to off or on, commonly used with interior lighting.

[Nick12DMC]

I had this problem when testing a Beep loco. As others have said the CW-80 voltage never goes quite to zero. You must put the lighted coaches on the track to draw some power. If it still has problems try the light bulb trick as explained above. I use the Lionel lighted covered bridge (3 bulbs) powered from the track. This provides enough draw to run small locos without lighted cars.

To cheer you up just be thankful your not here in the UK where the CW-80 bell and whistle circuits malfuntion on our 50Hz mains power. We have had real problems with these, our dealer was "pulling his hair out" after last Christmas. He had a large number of unhappy people who had bought Polar Express sets contact him.

We can't seem to get Lionel to take these frequency issues seriously. Worse they have kept it quiet so I guess will have a repeat this Christmas.

We came up with a solution in the Lionel Collectors Club UK using a 60 Hz Pure Sine Wave inverter and a 12V DC power supply to run it. However this adds around £150-£200 to the price of starting out with Lionel.

Regards

Nick

[Anonymous]

The Lionel CW80 transformer is a nice looking transformer.

you would think it would be a good one for a small or mid size layout.

but it really stinks. I have a loop in the living room that i run off the CW80.

but if i try to operate a proto sound or MTH proto 2.0 locomotive it will not run.

something with the sine wave. find a another transformer such as a MRC.

I belive that the lionel 100 watt transformer doesnt have this problem.

Nstrackman

[Anonymous]

pgtr,

If you don't have a full (12 page) manual for the CW-80 you can find one that you can read online (and/or print out) at www.Lionel.com under Customer Service --->Manuals. You can key in "CW-80" or look for this product number: 6-14198 . Get the 2004 version. Read every word of it, including the specific warranty: it has strict limitations.

The CW-80 will not run certain MTH products. Unless truly defective, it should run any Lionel product, although it only puts out 80 watts and is designed for small layouts only. Lionel will tell you the CW-80 is unlike any other transformer they have manufactured, so don't be surprised when you find operational differences between it and your older transformer: For example, the slow ramp-up throttle. (Some have speculated that this is a feature designed to save modern traction tires by not spinning the wheels.). Make sure you carefully read the section on the fold-back current-limiting feature.

Quality control has been a problem, but it is clear that many users have not read the instruction manual; and worse yet, many of the negative comments have originated with folks who simply don't understand the device.* It is really very different. When not actually defective, they work well, albeit somewhat differently from what one might expect. I have bought three, and each functions perfectly as designed. If you don't like the features of this design, that's fine -- get something else. 

Running it without the required lamp or two (as on a "test track") and/or trying to analyze it with an ordinary voltmeter will only confuse you. I always employ a 5 amp fast-blow fuse between transformer and track.

*Sorry, but that's just the way it is.

[lionelsoni]

I understand that an additional feature of this fine misunderstood transformer is that if you wire it with the common to the outside rails so that you can actuate signals and crossing gates and such from an isolated-rail track circuit, powered from the accessory output, the whistle and bell functions are swapped.

Perhaps someone who has one can tell us whether it is heavy enough to serve as a boat anchor.

[Nick12DMC]

I understand that an additional feature of this fine misunderstood transformer is that if you wire it with the common to the outside rails so that you can actuate signals and crossing gates and such from an isolated-rail track circuit, powered from the accessory output, the whistle and bell functions are swapped.

Perhaps someone who has one can tell us whether it is heavy enough to serve as a boat anchor.

Should hold a small dinghy

Regards

Nick

 

[pgtr]

Q: Will a 'replacement' CW-80 fix the leaking voltage issue or do they ALL consistently behave like this? (eg there would be little point in replacing it)

Q: If even the newest latest greatest CW-80s still do this - my set did NOT come with a lighted terminal track - SHoudl it or would that also properly mask the issue with the light being the 'band aide'?

FWIW the problem IS mitigated with lighted cars installed. That is to say the reverse direction button causes the e-unit to cycle with what I'd guestimate to be 90% or better accuracy. Without lit cars or non-lit rolling stock or other 'band-aide' the potential for getting the e-unit to properly cycle drops to perhaps 1 in 8 tries if not less.

Without taking the transformer apart I'll surmise what makes it 'revolutionary' is that it powers the loco with, to borrow another term from automobiles, 'throttle by wire' so to speak. That is there is likely some sort of A-D converter for the 'position' of the handle which is 'interpreted' by a (probably digital) control board that in turn actually varies the power output from the power source. The same board likely controls the other 'features' like fade to on (which 'should' give a nice smooth transition when reversing). This in contrast to a traditional transformer where the handle WAS the ACTUAL wiper across the copper with nohting 'in between' - And in the off position caused the wiper to be physically not in contact with the copper coils.

In my opinion the voltage 'leaking' when the direction button is pushed or when the arm is in the lowest 'off' position is a defect. I downloaded the manual and can find nothing in there to defend or characterize this as a 'feature' or working 'as designed'. The manual itself repeatedly refers to the handle as having an "off" position and never refers to it as 'the lower power position formerally known as off'.

From a safety or human factors standpoint one would expect with the handle all the way down NOTHING flows to the track. Period. From an operator's standpoint there might be room to develop a system that allows a modern loco to only change direction when the direction button is pushed and allow one to operate the handle independent of activating the e-unit. I for one could see an advantage to it. But obviously they missed that mark too. So A) the consumer is left with transformer power trickling to the track when the handle is in the off position and B) a modern e-unit that only begins to function if a light is installed in the circuit to leech or 'clean up' the voltage leak as a band-aide.

Whether it's due to design, engineering or manufacturing issues I can't say. If they are replacing CW-80s when receiving complaints then perhaps they have corrected the leaking voltage issue on later CW-80s either at the direction switch and perhaps the handle as well. *Does anybody know?*

For me it's a striking physical design - I like it's appearance - very cool looking transformer. If the direction switch simply worked properly I'd be happy as is even if the throttle handle trickled a little... and put it back in the box and wrap up this Polar Express gift I bought. I'll call them next week and see what they can do for me. If they do take care of the issue for me - I'll be very pleased with their willingness to stand behind their product.

Thanks again everyone for the insights!

[pgtr]

FYI Mine doesn't have a serial #. It has a 4 digit number in the lower right - is that a date code?

Either call or email Lionel.  Have your serial number for the transformer ready if they ask.  In my case they didn't and just sent the new CW80, no questions asked.  I think it is good customer service, though it is a shame that they have had to replace so many units.

Dennis

[daan]

I had this problem when testing a Beep loco. As others have said the CW-80 voltage never goes quite to zero. You must put the lighted coaches on the track to draw some power. If it still has problems try the light bulb trick as explained above. I use the Lionel lighted covered bridge (3 bulbs) powered from the track. This provides enough draw to run small locos without lighted cars.

To cheer you up just be thankful your not here in the UK where the CW-80 bell and whistle circuits malfuntion on our 50Hz mains power. We have had real problems with these, our dealer was "pulling his hair out" after last Christmas. He had a large number of unhappy people who had bought Polar Express sets contact him.

We can't seem to get Lionel to take these frequency issues seriously. Worse they have kept it quiet so I guess will have a repeat this Christmas.

We came up with a solution in the Lionel Collectors Club UK using a 60 Hz Pure Sine Wave inverter and a 12V DC power supply to run it. However this adds around £150-£200 to the price of starting out with Lionel.

Regards

Nick

 

Simply swap the cw80 for a Märklin transformer with lighted lockon and bell button. Problem solved. I run every train I have on 50Hz, only the protosound MTH engines needed a 5 watt 12 volt car bulb in parallel with the tracks to get them working. (Why that is, is still a big question to me, but without that bulb they come into program mode after starting up and won't run. With the added bulb all problems are solved. With the Märklin transformer).

The bell and whistle sound button I made from a simple drawing Lionelsony gave me.

It works great, costs about 10 bucks and works on 50Hz as well.

[Anonymous]

pgtr,

You are correct. There is no serial number -- at least not visible to the ordinary user. What is on the bottom of the case is a date code. Allegedly, there was a "bad batch" a couple of years ago.

You mentioned the possiblity of taking your CW-80 apart. Good luck! It is held together with 4 "tamper proof" screws at the bottom of deep wells. You would need to either buy or fabricate a suitable driver bit. The CW-80 is not designed to be serviced by anyone: not Lionel Chesterfield, Lionel Authorized Service Stations, not the end user.

If you have read the warrantly carefully, you are familiar with Lionel's bare-bones policy on this device. Briefly, one must have purchased it from an authorized dealer and be able to present the sales receipt for a defective item within one year of purchase. If you meet those qualifications, Lionel will replace the unit, pay the shipping costs, and not require you to return the defective unit. For any unit that is beyond a year old, etc., etc., the owner is basically on his own. You might find an individual -- perhaps on this or the other major forum -- who would work on it for you. Lionel might possibly go above and beyond their written warranty in individual cases. However, under the terms of the warranty they are not legally bound to do so, as I am sure you will agree..I dislike that. Even more, I dislike the idea that the CW-80 is simply non-repairable. Replaceable yes, up to a point, but not repairable.

You may well have a defective switch. Such things have been reported, and one member of this or the OGR forum, I can't recall which, posted that he had replaced a switch and fixed the problem. I have no idea where he found the appropriate part.

I did a Windows-search on this thread and the only time the word "revolutionary" popped up was in one of your posts. You are welcome to call it revolutionary if you wish, but please remember that  strictly speaking the term only implies something different and  does not necessarily guarantee something better.

I feel certain that Lionel will be interested to learn how you would have designed it. Please be a little patient with them, though, as it is generally understood that their design was to some degree constrained by modern protocols for "toy transformers" as established by Underwriters Labs.

There may have been more written about the CW-80 over the past couple of years than almost any other subject I can think of. Try the "search" or "find" functions on this and the OGR forum.

Posts by Dale Manquen and a few others have gone into great technical detail, including a schematic that might interest you. I don't know zip about the technics, but I do know its behavioral characteristics -- what to expect when it is doing what it is supposed to do, and what it does when it misbehaves.

Much of what has been posted by users is drivel, in my opinion, but you can accept theirs or mine. As someone has said, everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not to his own facts.

Among other things, I have posted a list of about a dozen characteristics of the CW-80 that I admire, and another dozen or so that I strongly dislike. I have also said that I wouldn't buy one new at list price, nor would I give one to someone, especially a child, where I wasn't available to provide training and personal supervision.

I believe the CW-80, although quirky to long-time train operators, is a relatively safe device; but there are lots of "features" that I don't like. Work-arounds exist.for some of them. I dislike most of the work-arounds too. The fact that your set came without the special piece of illuminated track (one of the workarounds) suggests that your set is not of recent manufacture.

Whether you can get yours to work to your satisfaction is iffy at best. In any event, as I have boated on the Severn River and the Chesapeake Bay for many years, I think I am qualified to state with certainty that a CW-80  makes a lousy boat anchor.

Try some serious research on the various forums -- or, if you have little time and lots of money, just bag the CW-80 and buy the perfect universal toy train transformer.

Happy trains!

 

 

[Nick12DMC]

Simply swap the cw80 for a Märklin transformer with lighted lockon and bell button. Problem solved. I run every train I have on 50Hz, only the protosound MTH engines needed a 5 watt 12 volt car bulb in parallel with the tracks to get them working. (Why that is, is still a big question to me, but without that bulb they come into program mode after starting up and won't run. With the added bulb all problems are solved. With the Märklin transformer).

Ahh yes, you can do this with the Polar Express as it has a simple air whistle. MTH are a lot more switched on when it comes to frequency issues. Their DCS command system which has a switchable 50/60Hz mode for example.

 However if you have anything with Trainsounds (which included our first loco) forget using it with 50Hz.. Trainsounds also has circuits that malfuntion on 50Hz power. So replacing with a European transformer has no effect on this problem as they supply 50Hz to the track.

I would also guess you don't run TMCC which has lots of problems on 50Hz (some versions more than others). Some locos were rendered unusable.

Its best to start on the right foot and have a 60Hz inverter setup from the word go. It saves lots of frustration later on if you intend to order and run other Lionel items.

 This can be a bit of a lucky dip, if the item contains electronics be careful.

Many thanks for the tips, This issue has been kept quiet for to long. If MTH can make things work with 50Hz I am sure Lionel could if they made the effort.

Best Regards

Nick  

 

 

 

[Anonymous]

As I've said probably 50 or more times on the various O gauge forums, I really like the appearance of the CW-80 transformer, and consider it one of the best-looking small toy train transformers ever made.

But I also really dislike the erratic and undependable performance of this transformer, particularly when one operates various brands of trains.  I had no end of problems with mine, and now it sits boxed-up and waiting to be disposed of at some time (I've had it too long to consider returning it, and I most definitely would not replace it with another CW-80).  And I must admit that I'm not interested in doing--or too lazy to do--any do-it-yourself fixes to the thing.

Had it been a dependable transformer--one I could trust--I would almost surely be using two or more on my small layout.  As it is, I'm using MTH Z750s and Z1000s to provide the power I need for operating trains from all of the various manufacturers.  Have also, at various times, used Lionel 1033s, LWs, and several other transformers with none of the problems experienced with the CW-80.

[Anonymous]

Hi again Allan,

If you would be so kind as to list a few of the specific problems you personally have had with your CW-80, I would consider taking it off your hands. I will pay shipping costs, of course.

Never mind the problems with MTH or any other-than-Lionel products.

Thanks for considering this offer.

[daan]

Ahh yes, you can do this with the Polar Express as it has a simple air whistle. MTH are a lot more switched on when it comes to frequency issues. Their DCS command system which has a switchable 50/60Hz mode for example.

 However if you have anything with Trainsounds (which included our first loco) forget using it with 50Hz.. Trainsounds also has circuits that malfuntion on 50Hz power. So replacing with a European transformer has no effect on this problem as they supply 50Hz to the track.

I would also guess you don't run TMCC which has lots of problems on 50Hz (some versions more than others). Some locos were rendered unusable.

Its best to start on the right foot and have a 60Hz inverter setup from the word go. It saves lots of frustration later on if you intend to order and run other Lionel items.

 This can be a bit of a lucky dip, if the item contains electronics be careful.

 

I don't have any DCS or TMCC engines. The electronics in my protosound engines work flawlessly on the 50Hz with a bulb in parallel. Also locosound from MTH works great with it. If Lionel trainsound also uses an electronic board powered via a rectifier you could try to swap the capicitor on the board to a bigger type, probably the DC voltage on the board is not flattened out enough, 60Hz is about 20% faster then 50 Hz, may be they use very precise calculated capicitors to equal out the dips from the AC behind the rectifier. The protosound engines also react very well on the homemade whistle/ bell button and all functions are working without hesitation.

Technically seen 50 or 60Hz is no difference after it is converted to DC, as long as the capicitors are capable to make it a nice flat voltage. Have you tried running them on DC?

Though there are electronics in them, the NiMH battery inside works like a car battery, I have one protosound locomotive in operation for over a year now and I didn't even have to charge the battery in between. It doesn't harm the electronics.

But if your setup works, leave it that way. My tinkering is only of use if one doesn't have a working setup and I doubt that it also works with DCS / TMCC because I think that the signal is blurred by the 50Hz track supply.

[twaldie]

I have a Polar Express set with a CW-80 and have had no problems at all.  The problem you are having sounds familiar, though.  I have a bunch of RMT BEEPs.  When I ran them using TMCC with a Powermaster I had the same problem, sometimes they would reverse, sometimes not, and sometimes they would just go into neutral.  If I ran them with a Z4000, their reverse units worked perfectly.  What I found was with the powermaster, when you push in the DIR button on the CAB-1, the voltage on the track drops to @5V, not zero.  With the Z4000, it goes right to zero when the direction button is pressed.    Obviously, 5V was not low enough to reliably activate the BEEPs reverse unit board.

The only fix I have used is to use the Z4000 for the BEEPS.  Good Luck

Tim

[Anonymous]

pgtr,

Have you had an opportunity to contact Lionel about your CW-80? I'm sure the Forum would like to hear what they have to say....