CW80 + Fastrack Remote O36 Switches

[Brutus]

Hey - I have just a couple trains and when set up I run them conventionally (no TMCC).  I was about to order some remote switches and did a search on the forum and turned up some info in an old thread from Chief about CW80's.  Is there any problem with powering these switches with a CW80 in the conventional mode (not powered by the track, but wired to the accessories posts)?

[Anonymous]

Jim,

Yes, most definitely.

Perhaps someone will help you directly. You can search this forum, or try the one sponsored by OGR, or call Lionel Technical Services and get an "official" answer.

There is a simple, no-cost workaround that works but it reverses the functions of the horn/whistle and bell buttons.

 

 

 

 

[chuck]

Accessory post on the CW-80 was internally wired backwards (I have no idea why).  If you use the aux post for anything, make sure it isn't in any way connected to the track circuit since the U post on the AUX side is really "hot".  You can:

a) remember this and wire stuff backwards from the instructtions on the AUX side
b) remember this and wire stuff backwards on the track side and have horn/bell work backwards
c) don't use the aux post for track related accessories (FT switches are pretty low voltage so they will probably work off of track voltage)
d) Take apart the unit an "fix" the internal wiring.

While "d" makes the most sense it is also the most difficult as the security screws are odd and you need a special bit to get inside.

Do a google search on Lionel CW80 FastTrack and you will probably find the other posts with the detailed info on this issue.

[Brutus]

Thanks for the info - I guess I'll see if they will run on track power and if they don't, then I'll try something else.  I have 2 of these CW80's and was amazed to find out I was wiring them backwards to the track!  I also have a K-line old-style transformer and I might just use that to run the switches instead (maybe everything, not sure how strong it is, it came with a copper mining handcar set.

[Anonymous]

Jin, You can't use the same CW80 to power the track and power the switches with the acc posts. I tried and you will get the constant voltage to the track that the acc posts are sending out.

[dwiemer]

Jim,

     You might want to spring for about $20.00 and get a #1033.  They are great transformers and would certainly be perfect to power your switches and some, if not all your other accessories.  You can find them on Ebay all the time and usually are in great shape, or just need a new power cord.  I have 3 CW80s that I am hoping to find some use for, perhaps the old Christmas tree layout.  Anyway, I think for the investment for the fastrack and trains you already have, I would get a 1033 and know that it will work.

Dennis

[chuck]

"and power the switches with the acc posts."

If you leave the jumper in and only power the switches through track power none of this matters.  The units require low voltage to run so you may not have to worry about use of the AUX port.  These units are nothing like the old O-22's with incandescent bulbs and a high current switch motors.

[luther_stanton]

The info on the CW 80 here and in other posts raises a question.

I am using both sides of my CW -80 for accessory power – one at 10V and one at 12V.  I have checked the phasing of each side with the other and with track power which is coming from a TPC and with another accessory transformer set to 18V.  Everything looks to be in phase and I have all the U terminals on all the power sources tied together.  My question is should my U  / A connections be reversed on  the accessory posts?  Or does the reverse wiring problem not have an effect in the situation I described?

 

Thanks!

[chuck]

It's not a phasing issue.  If the accessory posts on the transformers are used for accessories that do not access the track common (this may no be obvious because the internal wiring of devices is hard to see) there isn't a problem.  FastTrack switches running off of track power do not have a problem because the complete circuit is run from the track side.  If you try to use the AUX terminal on the trasformer AND the contsant voltage plug on the FastTrack switch you will be tying the circuits together internally (inside the switch) and then you get in trouble as the Aux common is actually "Hot".   Since the FastTrack switches are pretty efficient, track power is probably fine.

[wrmcclellan]

Folks,

The CW-80 has the red terminals tied together inside the transformer circuitry. This means if you try to use a common return (i.e. track and accessories) to both the black posts, the CW-80 internally is trying to use two internal independent controls to control two outputs that are tied together. This is an unfortunate design flaw in the CW-80.

This situation is somewhat analogous (but not really due to significant internal circuit variations) as if you took a Lionel ZW (which has the common posts tied to gether internally) and also tied the A and B posts together. You will not get independent A & B voltage control out of each ZW A & B post.

The easiest fix (which I use) is to simply use the red terminals as common and the black terminals for your two independent voltage outputs. This means the bell and whistle buttons are reversed which is a minor inconvenience. Internally manipulating the CW-80 is not really a good idea unless you are very skilled with electrical and electronic circuitry.

NOTE - when you set the accessory voltage output following the CW-80 accessory voltage procedure, make sure you have a good resistive load on the accessory output (e.g. light bulbs). The CW-80 has some internal circuitry to make sure the Triacs (which control the output voltages) turn off. Unfortunately this internal circuit "leaks" full AC voltage (i.e. 18 VAC) when there is no load on the CW-80, making it a very confusing transformer to operate as compared to traditional transformers.

Also - since the CW-80 uses Triacs to "chop" the full 18 VAC sine wave - traditional voltmeters will not accurately measure the AC output. As an example - I tested a Lionel starter set NYC Flyer with 3 0-27 lighted passenger cars. At the same approximate speed, an AC voltmeter measured 5.8 VAC with the CW-80 and 8 VAC with the ZW (real sine wave output). AC Voltmeters only work assuming what is being measured is a clean sine wave..

BTW - Jim - to use the CW-80 with your FT switches, as I state above - use the red posts for common and connect to the track and switch constant voltage terminal to the black terminals. However - I agree that the FT switches work well off of track power. Since the power draw of the FT switches is very low when not being operated (FT switches have an LED lamp - I do not have one handy to test at this time), you may need a light bulb or two on the CW-80 accy circuit in addition to the FT switches to make sure the Triacs turn on to regulate the accy voltage.

[luther_stanton]

Roy,

 

Great explanation – thank you!  

One thing that I did was to set the output voltages at 10V and 12V off the track / accessory terminals with bulbs as load (I am using TPC for track power).  I measured the value with a Fluke 83 DVM.  It is interesting in your explanation that the TRIACs are chopping the voltage, actually giving you (and me) a false reading.  In your case, it looks like the voltage reading was low for the CW – 80, which perhaps explains why my fuel house guy moves like he is on steroids.

I have “alleviated” my situation by buying a 1033 on Ebay.

[Brutus]

Thanks for all the info, Roy and for the email too - very weird.  I'm printing this out so I don't forget the next time.  Once the switches show up, I'll try just running off track power first.

Question - any lightbulbs work?  Like, just put a couple accy style lightbulbs on the circuit?

[Anonymous]

Luther, the way you connected the CW-80 with the two U terminals tied together to common produced an interesting result.  The A and B terminals were at the same voltage since they are wired together internally, and that voltage was the higher of the settings for either the track or accessory settings.  Just one of the Triacs was carrying the peak of the current.  This wouldn't necessarily hurt the transformer or the Triacs, but it could sure be confusing when you tried to adjust either output!!

[luther_stanton]

After Roy’s post, I realized that was what in fact was happening.  I had not realized this problem existed with the CW 80.  I measured / set the voltage under load for each side independently and then happily went about hooking everything up.  I did not go back and re-measure once both outputs were hooked up and since the voltage difference was not that great – 10 vs 12 volts, it was not really perceptible. 

 

However, as I stated previously, I thought the diesel fueling station guy was moving faster than when I had cleaned it up and tested it.

 

Definitely a good learning experience!

[wrmcclellan]

Jim - any 12 -18 V filament light bulb(s) will work.

[pmilazzo]

Jim, for my son's first 5X9 layout with 6 switches I was in the same boat as you...I already was warned about the CW-80, but he really like that transformer.  I figured, okay, lets just try running the switches off track power which is the default for fastrack.  The result, no problems at all and the auto derailment feature works at the slowest speeds as well. So I'm just using the track power side and not the aux side. Another perk is much less to wire.

In a nutshell, it worked out just fine.  As we start to add accessories, I may buy an accessory transformer or go back to my post war ZW, but for now we are in business.