engine stalls

[thatboy37]

i ran my engine for maybe twenty minutes and after a while my engine came to a slow halt and then just died. i pushed the engine and it kinda propelled itself with the help of me pushing it to. once i took my hand off it it stopped again. my next step i took the engine off the track placed it back on the track and it startd running again then it did the same thing as stated above. i picked the train off the track again and it ran and then stopped again everytime it stopped in a different place. well the wiring i think is right as for the power and then i have a drop every 8 feet for a feeder wire to the center rail. i only have one drop for the ground /common wire that is over by the transformer is this the problem why my engine keeps going dead on me being that i have drop every 8 feet for the power wre and i only have 1 drop for the common/ground wire. by me putting a drop every eight feet for the ground/common wire do you think this will solve my problem or i dont want to say it or maybe there is something wrong wth my engine. please help i would love for my engines to run and not stall and this is the same problem i had at my sisters house and also my house when i had the layout on the floor.

[mitchelr]

Reggie,

I am pretty sure that you need feeds to both the power and the common/ground. 

Mitch

[thor]

I am NOT an expert on Lionel O gauge Reggie so wait till one of the guys answers who knows this stuff better than me but I will say this from experience with a large HO layout, when you build a great big layout, you WILL have problems, even if everythings brand new.

Reading your description I'm not sure the problem IS electrical feeds but the last guy was right, you've got to have good power and ground feeds.  However from your description "I put it back and it ran again..." I'd suspect an overheating problem of some kind possibly mechanically caused from something binding.  The test is to try another loco and if it runs okay then you know its something wrong with the first loco.

[spankybird]

HI Reggie,

I think you will also need to add a drop for the ground. Also I have to agree with Thro, It does sound like an overheating problem. Did you lub your engine before running it?

tom

[chuck]

You do want the drops for the common and hot to be paired.  Electricity needs to run in a curcuit, aka you need a source of the power (center rail/hot side of the transformer) AND a return path (outer rails/common).  Toy train track isn't the most conductive stuff so you'd like to have return feeds for the common/neutral side as well as the hot.

BTW, is the loco's headlight blinking rapidly just before this happens or does it just shut down? 
Rapid blinking is a loss of TMCC signal and this is the fail to safe mode.  Engine does nothing until signal is restored.  If not, you might want to test the loco on a small loop of text track to make sure there isn't an internal wiring issue.  I had a PA-1 that would behave as you described and after four or five disassemblies I was able to trace the issue to a bad wire nut inside the loco.  Whne you giggled or jostled the loco the wire nut made contact and the engine behaved until another jiggle/jostle broke contact and shut it down.

[thatboy37]

it did smell as if it was burning or had a straange smell to it. i didnt take it off the track for long. as it stopped i took it off for a second or two and then right back on the track as i did that i dont think it had time to cool down in 2 seconds. yes the train was lubed. i worked on the train from 5 yesterday til 3:30 this morning. i also wired the first mainline again with a common every 8 feet as i did for the power to the center rail last night. i put the engine back on the track and ran it for an hour and it didnt have any problem of over stopping or you say over heating after that. i dont want to say that fixed the problem but it didnt stop or slow down anymore as i ran the train at a fairly high speed for about an hour just to see if it would do the same thing and to my surprise it ran like a scalded dog with no problem. i will do the same thing today to double check t see if it stalls on me again and if it doesnt i think i solved the problem by adding a drop for the common every 8 feet. i told the guy whom i bought the engine from and he said it could have been a problem with the mother board or wiring on the mother board. i will do the test again today to see if it stops like it did if it does i know its not the wiring its the mother board inside the train the reason it stops like it does and i have to send it to the guy i bought it from and he would repair it for me. i will let you guys know the outcome as soon as the verdict comes in. thanks for the advice guys.

[laz 57]

REGGIE,

  Run a power to the center rail and a return to the outer rail, you need to do this in order to get an even complete circuit.  A better way to do this is with the star circuit pattern.  Where you take the leads from the transformer to a central location under layout, then have shorter leads from there to other parts of the track.  What I did and I have half my layout in fasttrack, is take a piano hinge, about 12 inches long, pull the center out and split it in two.  One is for the common one for the hot lead.  From transformer take and place leads to each of the hinges, using screws with the hinges fasten leads to the hinge.  Mark the A and U  leads .   Then simply run your paired wires to whereever you want to go.  Using the fasttrack on the underside you can solder the leads in place.  This is how I did my layout and worked fine.  No problems.  Hope this helps.

laz57

[thatboy37]

thanks laz as i have wired with a buss wire and that wire following the track under the bench work all the way around the layout then tapping into it every 8 feet with the center rail for the hot and the inner rail for the common. i will do the test in a few minutes and get back to you and let you know how it went.

[thatboy37]

well since 1012am this morning till now 1100am the train has been running at half speed and no signs of it slowing down. now i have added 13 2 bay hoppers and 15 gunderson twin stack cars it slowed but because of the weight of the cars and is running perfectly. well let me take my words back it just stopped at 1103am. but im thinking thats because of the weight it is pullingwell my test wet ok for 50 minutes but the failed now what should i do being that it failed 50 minutes into running

[thor]

Is this a brand new engine?  Because if it is, you might be inadvertently giving it a bit of a hammering!  lets take a review of what you've reported so far.

First was the overheating/stalling coupled with a 'burning smell'.  Okay well the damage is done, IF it is damaged because that smell usually emanates from motor windings overheating. Motor windings will overheat if they are trying to pull current through a poor conductor.  However motors generally are pretty forgiving if the overheat is momentary and they get a chance to cool off. If not eventually the lacquer on the windings may melt causing either a complete short or a partial. Either way the motors shot. 

Having lubed it and put in more power feeds you say you gave it a pretty decent load to pull. Well, that wasnt the kindest thing to do beause lubed or not a new locomotive needs breaking in. You can get away with not doing this but its really not wise. I prefer to run a new loo for about ten minutes in each direction at half power. Let it cool down then run it for about five minutes as fast as it can go without derailing. Do that in each direction. Let it cool down. Now add from two to six coaches or trucks (two for a little one six for a big one) and let it circulate under load for about half an hour but keep nose and ears on it in case noises or smells make themselves known.

Finally, strip and check the engine. Use canned air or electrical contact cleaner if you see dust, grit, particles of anything. Grease the gears if they need it, put a tiny drop of oil on axle bearings if they seem dry, give a careful eyeball to things like, pinched wires, overtightened screws, excessive friction in axles. If all this passes inspection the loco is now run in and should run fine for a long time.

Trains are like 50's cars. They are tough and well made but the tolerances in things like gear tooth mesh and gear pinion run out (free play) and axle bearings often isnt right. The break in period allows these components to come to terms with their little eccentricities. It allows bits to wear off rather than break. Its a very necessary step for a long life and it makes a big difference.

Others may disagree but my Lionel 4-4-2 brand new had weird noises and ran better one way than another. After I followed the above plan plus lubing and adding a thrust washer on the intermediate pinion shaft and between the wheels and coupling rods, its start up voltage went from 7 to 2.5 and the engine sounded smoother and ran much better as a result.

Frankly if I had the room and the rolling stock to load it up as you describe I think it quite likely that something might have broken as a result.  These toys arent given more than the most cursory check at the factory, they really can always use a tuneup. I hope it turns out okay for you and maybe its a TMCC glitch, they are tough little beasties.

However, one more warning, if the motor was trying to pull current through a bad conductance, that same excess current draw will affect the circuit board that controls the motor and those electronic components are not top drawer and probably a bit marginal at best.  So watch it, mate!  Go easy on them till they've had a chance to bed in properly.

PS I'm as envious as all heck about your magnificent setup!