Question on the Lionel 6407 Rocket Car

[Anonymous]

Hello everyone -

First time posting anything here, I have read here off & on and have always found things to be very informative.  I am a casual collector, meaning I am not the "must be MIB" type of collector, no offense meant to those who are. 

On the Postwar Era Lionel 6407 Rocket Car -  Should it or should it not have a pencil sharpener in the nose cone?  I have seen a couple of these online on websites for sale that say they have the "correct no pencil sharpener nose cone".   I have always been of the knowledge that it should have the pencil sharpener.  Can someone clear this up for me - should it have a pencil sharpener or not?

I ask because just this past Friday at a local estate sale I purchased a nice group of Lionel items which included a 6407 Rocket Car with Rocket w/ pencil sharpener as well as a complete 6413 Mercury Project Car and some other nice space age/military pieces.  It is an original rocket  - there is no doubt of that.  Its been played with and shows some wear but not too bad.  I just want a clarification on the pencil sharpener.  As a side note, no its not for sale - it is going to be a part of my personal collection.

Thank you all in advance.

Steve

[csxt30]

Steve !!

Maybe it had the pencil sharpener in later MPC era models, I couldn't find it in the postwar site below. Also, maybe the TCA would have some info on it. 

http://www.postwarlionel.com/

Thanks, John

[Anonymous]

John -

Thak you for the welcome.  I could not find it on postwar either, had already checked.

I had always heard that it should have as a pencil sharpener as noted here: http://www.goldentrains.com/3l3.htm

Thats what I have always read and heard - that it should have the pencil sharpener in the nose cone.

But then I saw one listed for sale that says "correct non pencil sharpener nose" here: http://www.ambrosebauer.com/lotdetail.php?auction=7&lot=138&picture=

I just want to know which one is correct, or did it come both ways - with & w/o pencil sharpener?

Steve

[csxt30]

Steve: I'll bet it was made both ways, but maybe you should start a new post & put Postwar question on it & there will be a few guys right over to help you !! We have some very enthusiastic Postwar guys here, & they will probably know !

Thanks again, John 

[spankybird]

I look this up in David Doyle book “Lionel Trains 1945-1969”

 

from David Doyle

 

This car, only produced in 1963, is one of the more sought after flatcars proceed by Lionel. The body of the car was heat-stamped “Lionel” but the number did not appear on the body or the load. IT is the lad that generates the interest in this car. A large missile with removable Mercury capsule was transported resting in a 6801-64 cradle. The missile was produced by Sterling Plastics, which had developed it  as a pencil case as part of their regular product line. The standard Sterling missile included a pencil sharpener in the base of the capsule, a feature omitted on the missiles produced specifically for Lionel. The Sterling Plastics name was always molded into the base of the capsules: reproductions, made from the original tooling, lack this imprint. The car was equipped with AAR type trucks, with one fixed and one operating coupler.

[msacco]

Yep, Spankybird this is what I've always heard. That it should NOT have the pencil sharpener to be considered original and correct. I believe it's in my postwar book by McComas. I will double check but I'm very, very sure.

 

Mike S.

[rlplionel]

I'll bet it was made both ways

Greenberg's postwar Lionel guide states, regarding the 6407 flatcar rocket:

"When Lionel contracted for these rockets as a flatcar load, they did not want to pay for the pencil sharpener (if they had, they certainly would have advertised this feature!)...Probably by mistake or for their own convenience, Sterling shipped some rockets to Lionel with the pencil sharpener installed. New Lionel examples with this feature have been reported by several reliable sources."

So John is correct in that it came both ways - usually without, but sometimes with, a pencil sharpener.

[Anonymous]

Thank you all for the great info. 

So it is possible that the original rocket did come with a pencil sharpener according to Greenbergs Book, but not certain. 

What does the Greenberg book say about the couplers - the car I have is heat stamped Lionel, no Number, with Correct Cradle,  AAR Trucks but both couplers are fixed.

Let me provide a little background on this and maybe you all could give me your opinions. This car came in a lot from a local estate sale & I was told by the daughter of the gentleman who had lived there that the trains had been in the attic for years - they have the dust to prove it.  Whoever owned them kept all parts together - the 6413 Mecury Capsule car has all parts even instructions & parts envelope.  The 6650 Rocket Launcher Car is boxed with instructions.  The 237 Loco & Tender both boxed with instructions.  The 6448 Target Car complete with Instructions.  A 110 Trestle set complete boxed with instructions, screws, brackets, parts envelope, paperwork, etc.  Every single piece in this lot was original, correct, & complete.  Based where I got it form & the condition of the other items in the lot, I have no reason to doubt the authenticity of the 6407, but some of the details here do concern me.

The cradle even has a little red on the top edges where the red has rubbed off the rocket onto the cradle over the years.  The rocket does show wear comparable to the rest of the items in the lot, it is an original Sterling Rocket - Sterling stamped on capsule, has no "astronaut" stamp on side of rocket, no bleeding of the red around the fins, shows wear and is clearly old, and it does have a pencil sharpener.

I know its possible the car may not be the 6407 based on the info provided here by you all, but I find it hard to believe its not original based on the other items in the lot and the fact that it hasn't been touched in years - the pencil sharpener on the rocket is explainable as per the Greenberg Book, but the couplers concern me.  Are there any other identifying factors for the car itself?  Please I am looking for any thoughts & opinions.

Steve