Advice from experienced postwar operators needed

[msacco]

Is it normal for postwar a.c. motors to do some weird stuff while operationg for more than a few minutes. By this I mean, my 2056 will speed up some times and then return to it set voltage without me touching the throttle. Also the opposite can happen; slow down and speed up a minute of so later. It usually starts to do this after between about 5 to 10 minutes of operation.
I'm wondering if this has to do with age and the motors getting hot. I've also seen it happen to my 2354 F3 as well. Both locos have been services and cleaned with new brushes and lubed. My track power is good with plenty of 16 gauge feeders on my blocks so I believe my track power is good. I'm wondering it's the rotary switches or my new Zw (which would be bad)
Wondering if you basically should only have to set the throttle once for constant speed on a level grade and never have to touch it. I do have the engines go rather slowly just enough to get the over 031 curves nicely.

Mike S.

[trigtrax]

First place to check is your commutator, clean out any gunk between the copper plates. Then look at your e-unit contacts and all solder joints. Speeding up and slowing down are not usually motor problems but a change in the conductivity.. you're losing voltage someplace due to IR drop.

[msacco]

Thanks trigtrax, but you say voltage drop, do you mean with in the loco itself or through track power from the transformer?

thanks,
mike s.

[Anonymous]

Hello msacco I had the same problem. What i did was to place it on my friends layout and test it. It ran fine. I found that some of my track connections were very loose or may be not making a good contact. This was corrected and every thing now is working fine. I live not too far from you so if you need to test it you are welcome to come and place it on my lauout. Felix

[msacco]

thanks for the offer felix. I don't think it's my track connecitons because they are soldered to the track and all seem very tight.
It's weird because my postwar alco as it run at about 5 minutes in sometimes gets a little fasterbut not always. And my railking proto 1 alco stays at a constant speed. I guess this is why I think it's the postwar locos, but I know they draw more current (at least I think they do) so maybe it's my rotary switches. Dont' know but would love to know.

Mike S.

[Anonymous]

You didn't mention the rollers, check them too. Also, does the speed change occur in the same spot or all over the layout? Are you using the ZW to power anything beside the engines, like switch motors, signals, and accessories?
Are there other electrical appliances in the house like a washing machine beginning operation? When their motor goes on it can suck up most of the house power momentarily.

[Jumijo]

I have a post war 2034 that speeds up and slows down. After letting it run for a few minutes, it smooths out and stays at a constant speed.

Jim

[msacco]

thanks Grumpy. I'm running my 2354s now and they speed up as they run about 5 minutes or so in. I'm using a new zw with for just track power now. I have a phased 100 watt postwar transformer for switches. Not running anything in my basement right now except for my flourescent lighting. Oh, it speeds up or slows down across the whole loop not just in spots.

Mike S.

[lionelsoni]

What kind of transformer do you have? "ZW" covers a lot of ground nowadays.

[phillyreading]

Check your transformer output with a digital volt meter or combo multimeter, I think the problem could be your transformer as I have had some trouble with newer Lionel stuff acting up and nobody ever heard of my problems before. Try a post-war ZW or KW with your locomotives and if the problem goes away your transformer is bad.
Lee Fritz

[msacco]

Bob, new Zw means modern, sorry.

Mike S.

[SPFan]

Worn driveline bearings can cause this. At certain rpms the armature will oscillate in the bearing. Oil or grease helps for a while until its pushed out. Try placing the engine upside down and power it with clip leads and listen for a mid pitched growl or grinding type noise. I thnk the 2056 just has a hole on the phenolic brush holder that acts as the bearing one side. If this turns out to be the problem you can either replace the brush holder or install a brass or bronze (better) bushing for a more permanent fix.

Pete

[lionelsoni]

I've never seen the kind of behavior you describe. With it happening in the three locomotives that you've mentioned, it sure seems like it must have something to do with the track, wiring, or transformer. If you're confident about the track itself, why not connect a voltmeter to the track (downstream from the wiring) and watch it for a few days as you operate. You can locate the meter near your transformer, but run a pair of wires from it directly to the point on the track that you want to observe, without any other connections. Maybe you will see something.

[Anonymous]

Some things to try and check.

Dirty track joints or transformer connections. As in cold solder joints could be getting intermittant continuity or even a brief short.

Transformer could be bad,try running with a different transformer.

Power company could be dropping your voltage on and off. Not as far fetched as you think. Put a volt meter in the outlet. Should normally be 117-120. When train slows check the meter you may be getting a voltage drop. Power company can check this for you.

[msacco]

Lionelsoni,
Is this really that unique. I'm running my 2056 now and about 8 minutes into running it slowed down almost to a stop and then resumed its original speed.
I hoooked my zw right to a loop bypassing the rotaries and things seemed to run well. My rotaries have crimped spade connector so I"m wondering if this could be a problem. Also some of the spade seemed very close together and these connections are for separate posts on the ZW. I'm wondering what the heck is going on.

[msacco]

Thanks for all the suggestions on this. Really ticks me off because I can't figure it out.
I will buy a voltmeter and see what it says. My thinking is it is either my modern zw or the rotary switches. I don't think it's the locos.

Mike S.

[dwiemer]

Mike,
Probably not your situation, but while you are waiting on a better solution and while you are checking those voltages, you may want to take the time and give your engines a good going over, clean, lube etc. Shouldn't cost much, and would eliminate that from the equation. Besides, if yours are like the many I have, they really need it anyway.
Dennis

[Anonymous]

If possible remove the spade connectors from the switch,remove the insulation,heat up the terminal and solder the wire to the terminal. I always solder crimp on connectors to the wire. When I was a trouble shooting control system installations crimp on terminals were often a problem. Obviously the switch could also be bad or the terminals could be poorly connected to the track.

Dale Hz

[msacco]

Thanks again. I might have made some progress here. I think it is the engines after all. See if this makes sense.
Using a digital voltmeter I took readings of the transformer posts and the track at its furthest point. Left it on for a few minutes and they matched with the same couple of hundreths of a volt fluctuations.
Then I fired up my post war Alco and powered up at 12 volts or so. Voltmeter at the track read between 12.5 and 12.7 volts. About 5 minutes in, the alco, as usual sped up, and remained that way. Immediately checked the meter and the voltage was in the same range.
Did this with my 2056 and that loco usually stalls after a while running at a very slow speed. Checked the meter at the stall point on a curve and again the meter was in range.
So what do you guys think.

Mike S.

[Frank53]

I've never experienced this type of problem. The only trains I run are post war off a post war ZW on tubular track.

[msacco]

Frank,
I'm also running on tubular and I believe my track joints are tight and connections good. I am using a new ZW though
Let me ask you this. Do you run your postwar stuff slow. I ask this because this is usually where I see the speed problems and I'm starting to be convinced it's the age of the equipment. I like to run these engine slow so they just have enough power to comfortably navigate an 031 curve.
Really would like to know how your postwar stuff runs.

Mike S.

[Frank53]

I do run post war trains slow, however, they do have a tendency to require more "goosing" to get going. Once mine are moving, however, I can back down the power a bit and they hold a steady speed nicely. At slower speed, e-unit buzz could be less noticeable. I had a 621 switcher that would buxx like crazy at speed, but would crawl at slow speed silently.

I have a number of post war steamers that are a bit more finickey in getting going, but run smoothly once started. Diesels and electrics need less encouragement to get started and retain their running speed when backed off.

[Anonymous]

Bad joints may not necessaarily be picked up by volt meter. I would solder all my joints.

Dale Hz

[lionelsoni]

It didn't occur to me that you might use a digital voltmeter. It might be measuring the peak voltage and scaling it to RMS voltage, assuming a sine wave. If the "transformer" uses the phase-control technique to adjust the voltage, the average and RMS values can vary but the peak remain the same. An analog voltmeter almost always measures the average rectified voltage and should respond even to phase control. You can verify whether the digital voltmeter is suitable for this measurement by running the transformer up and down over its full range. If there is a part of the range where the meter does not change (probably at the high end), then the digital meter will not catch any misbehavior on the part of the transformer.

I thought you had said that you had soldered your rail joints. But I went back and saw that you said instead that you soldered the wires to the rails. I highly recommend soldered rail joints, as Dale says.

[msacco]

Bob,
I never realized soldered joints were that important. I heard it's a pain to rip the track up this way for repair or other reason. My layout is permanent as far as I'm concerned.
How do I do this? All three joints along the track. I guess I would do it the same way I soldered to power feeds the track.

Mike S.

[lionelsoni]

I actually started soldering mine because of the increased convenience of repairs and modifications. The trick is that I don't use track pins; so I can suck the solder out of the joints and lift the track section straight up.

You can make a solder joint just by flowing a bead of solder across the gap, on the flanges and web, if the gap is not too wide. I also put solder inside the (empty) railhead to make the joint smoother. I always have to push one rail or the other into alignment and hold it while the first solder bead solidifies, then take care not to remelt that while soldering the other side and the railhead. This requires a bit of practice and patience. I keep a loose truck handy for testing the result for smoothness.

Some folks find it easier or more secure to retain the track pin, or to solder a short piece of small-gauge bare wire across the gap, at the corner between the web and the flange, or both. If you keep your pins, the solder joints are not much extra trouble to undo for repairs. I use a solder sucker; some people prefer wire braid for removing solder.

[msacco]

Bob,
solder the center rail pin connection or all three includeing the ground rails?

thanks,
Mike Sacco

[lionelsoni]

I obviously have to solder them all because I have no pins; but I would solder all three in any case. The center rail is of course more important; but the outside rails can still contribute to voltage drop despite their redundancy.

[msacco]

Bob, the verdict is in for me.
It's has to be my 2056. My F3 has been running consistant. My alco tends to speed up but I realized I didn't replace the brushes on this when I got it off of ebay, I just cleaned them.
I bought a radio shack analog meter. Wow, so much easier to deal with.
I did what you said. picked a point on m L shaped layout that was a distance away and put the probes into a lockon. Set the 2056 into a slow speed and checked the meter: 11and half volts. Ran it a few minutes and the 2056 sped up through the whole route and I checked the meter as the train passed the lockon....and 11.5.
Ran it for 5 minutes or so more and the 2056 stalled around a curve. I quickly disconnected the probes and ran to the point between loco and tender which was on the other side of the layout and took a reading.....11.5.
I'm going to replace brushes and do another cleaning and see.

thanks for the help. Probably will solder just in case.

Mike S.