Really confused about new engines and transformers.

[Birds]

I have been reading the posts here regarding new engines and new transformers/old transformers. I am now very confused.

I understand the new MTH Z4000 has a pure sine wave, that the new Lionel ZW has a "cropped" sine wave, and that vintage ZW, KW, and 1033 transformers are pure sine wave.

What exactly do these differences mean for running new engines if you want to use the transformers as conventional transformers, and not use the new remote control systems? What do you gain and loose in terms of features?

Other than more watts (and being new), what do these new transformers do or provide that the vintage postwar ZW, KW, and 1033 do not?

I have one or two other questions once I get a better handle on these basics.

Thanks,
Birds

[pbjwilson]

I'm confused too. But I can tell you that I run a whole range of different locos on a bunch of different transformers and have had no troubles. MTH PS1, PS2, Lionel CC, postwar and prewar run on MTH750, ZW,KW, Am. Flyer8B, and el cheapo starter set transformers. I have had no trouble on any of them.

That being said I have no idea about the Lionel CW80. I think that's the only one that has quirks.

I have a pretty simple layout and run my trains with a MTH 750 transformer. Lights and some accessories on a Lionel 4861(cheapo), and switches on a prewar Am. Flyer8B(bloody good transformer). For me thats the easiest way. Everything works. The wiring is divided up so I can trace any problems that may occur. And there's plenty of power to spare and nothing gets"hot".

Now, I can't get all the extra sounds out of my locos that I could if I had some remote control system but I get the basics and can fire my couplers and get station sounds, and whistle/bell pretty easily.

Perhaps others can fill you in with more. For me I keep it real simple and play trains.

[Anonymous]

Nothing to worry about! Just avoid the Lionel CW-80 and you'll be fine with just about any transformer you care to use, consistent with the work being asked of it.

[Anonymous]

If you are in the secondhand transforner market for use as railpower, avoid Model Rectifier Corp's Dual Power 027 unit[270 watt] which was issued about 8 years ago. It is in a gray metal rectangular case and is operated/controlled by a handheld remote throttle. Because it was troublesome for running Proto 1.0 and early Proto 2.0 engines,I gave mine to someone who uses it only for lighting and certain accessories.

(MRC has since marketed a "Pure Power" twin throttle 270 watt transformer which is a good unit. Also, a 135 watt version).

The older Lionel transformers: ZWs, KWs,1033s, etc ,have pure sine wave outputs and will work as power supply for about any train or accessory whether operating Conventional or in Command Control[TMCC by Lionel and DCS by MTH]. Most older units have questionable circuit breakers, as a result one should use inline fuses or breakers boxes to protect the transformers . Also, the older units should be reconditioned if not already: power cord, rollers/wipers, binding posts, horn rectifiers.

[twaldie]

The only problem I have encountered was trying to run an older Protosound 1 engine on a Lionel transformer that puts out the modified sine wave, it wouldn't do anything at all. The PS2 engines seem to work OK.
I think I read somewhere here that the modified sine wave was "designed" to work optimally with Pullmor motors, but I could be wrong on that.
Anything should work OK on a regular sine wave.

The other advantage of the new transformers is that their overload circuits are quicker to trip off if a problem is encountered.

Tim

[Birds]

Okay.

So I can use any new transformer in conventional mode (no DCS or TMCC) and all the new engines trains will run the same as if I was using a vintage transformer.

Without DCS or TMCC, I will get some sound (chuffing, whistle/horn) but I will loose "extra" sounds (station announcements, etc) that DCS or TMCC decodes/unlocks/activates?

Birds

[winrose46]

Do not forget if you are using post war transformers with newer engines to place a quick acting fuse between the transformer and the track. The electronics in the newer engines will fry if you use a ZW without a quick acting 10 am fuse and you have a derailment. A couple of sites sell a ciruit breaker that can replace the fuse.

[jimhaleyscomet]

My CW-80 blows my horns (trainsounds box car and PS2 engines) constantly at high voltages when running in conventional mode. However, I rarely get that high of voltage during conventional operation so it is not a problem.

Jim H

[Anonymous]

Postwar transformers work well for running postwar trains. They have problems with newer stuff becuase a) the ciruit breakers are older style slow blow thermal units and can fry modern electronics before they trip and b) the whistle/horn buttons inlcude "booster" windings to compensate for the older disk rectifiers used in these unit. This why a modern loco will often speed up when you hit the buttons on these transfomers (to avoid this phenomenom you can try using an external sound activation button but the train may slow down if you are trying to fire off an older and badly worn air whistle)

Modern switching power supplies will run older trains BUT they may trip out under "normal" operating characteristics of these loco's. Older open frame motors with worn brushes might trigger a false positive for a short and trip a breaker. The modern supply may also misread a current leak and go ino overdrive mode throwing off a voltage spike that may damage a cicruit board in a modern locmotive.

Some of the transformers are better built/designed. This is true for both the old and the new. Lower power power units of both era's are more likely to cause problems as they were considered low end and not built as well. The modern 75-80 watt units are right on the border line. If you operated them in accordance with the manufacturers instructions (that little booklet that everyone seems to mistake for packing material) and use them only with modern equipment you should be fine. If you use them only wit PW, they will probably be OK. If you try and mix their use with both PW and modern you are probably asking for trouble.

The new larger supplies, e.g. Z-4000, MRC Pure Sine Wave, and the modern ZW have enough reserve power to handle PW stuff gracefully and usually enough protection to not damage modern equipment. You still should still be careful running in "mixed mode" and probably install some good quality spike protection and/or fast acting breakers. Resetting a breaker is a lot easier/cheaper than replacing fired circuit cards.

chuck

[Birds]

Thanks for the replies. I wasn't as confused as I thought.

Now for posting the next question as a new thread...

Birds

[brianel027]

Birds, on an unrelated note, a topic that comes up a lot if you are running modern can motored (truck mounted) locos is why do they run so fast with older postwar power?

If you are running these kinds of locos, a Lionel 1033 will do the trick nicely. With the choice of 2 voltage ranges to the track, the B-U setting (0-11 volts) is great for these kinds of locos. Other transformers like the ZW, KW, TW etc start out by putting a minimum 6 volts to the track... fine for an open frame AC motor, but high for a DC can motored loco.

Any of the modern transformers that start at a 0 volt level to the track (other than what others posted) would be good too.

[Birds]

brianel027,

Thanks for the reminder.

I am running a KW. KWs, like the 1033, provide a choice of voltage ranges depending on the post combinations.

A-U gives one 6-18 volts
A-C gives one 0-14 volts

Starts and stops are much smoother with the lower voltage A-C combination. This combination requires a high throttle with one engine and maxing out the throttle when running two engines on the main line. But this is also nice because the trains run well at full throttle and don't take flight at the corners.

Enjoy,
Birds