NEED MAJOR HELP

[Anonymous]

My son received for Christmas a starter set (Pennsylvania Flyer Set) with Fastrack and the CW-80 controller. Of course, he wants to add on to this and I, not ever having been a train enthusiast (but am starting to really enjoy it) need some major help. What trains will work with Fastrack (they say O gauge, O-27, etc.). Can you connect Fastrack to O, and if so, what O? O or O-27 and what is the difference? How do you make accessories work? Will the older "O" type accessories work with the CW-80. Finally, does anyone make a good board or table that we could set up somewhere. Basically, I just need some help, explanation and a lot of questions answered.

Thanks to anyone.

[Anonymous]

There is a FastTrack to O transition piece. The difference between O and O-27 is the height of the rails or their "profile". O-27 was also made of a thinner gauge of steel and was less costly.

You can run most trains that work on O/O-27 on FastTrack. Only exception might be some pre-war or higher end brass loco's made in the 70's/80's for use exclusively on O gauge track. These types of trains have really deep flanges and will not work on anything but true "hi-rail" O.

FastTrack does work well on a carpeted floor so a table isn't necessary. If you want to use pre-made folding table there are some fiberglass or stamped steel tables available at places like Sam's Club. Just put some 1/2" foa padding or 1" styrofoam insulation between the track and the table (or green indoor/outdoor carpetting. Wiring may become an issue. It's pretty easy to drill down through 1/2" plywood, stamped steel may be a different story.

CW-80 only has a total of 80 watts of power available. Some of the older accessories will pull more power than their modern equivalents. This may require getting an additional transformer to handle this or getting a larger single one. Once you decide about how much power you need you can get into replacement power supplies.

[Jumijo]

Stick with Fastack!It's more expensive, but stays together much better and looks much better. Better track system that regular tubular, in my opinion.

Jim

[Anonymous]

Chan1855,

If your CW-80 is working properly (some don't) it will run most of the older accessories just fine, with one MAJOR caveat which is very difficult to describe. There are innumerable posts on this subject on this and the OGR forum. You can search both. Try CW-80 as your keyword and be prepared for an avalanche.

In brief the thing that must be kept in mind is that you can NOT use any accessory that utilizes one of the outside rails as "ground." Properly wired, the track is powered by the CW-80 as follows: The A post goes to the center rail; the U-under-A post goes to an outer rail. This constitutes the "throttle circuit" that controls the train.

Most accessories use the B and U-under-B posts (and here is the point) the U-under-B post is NOT ELECTRICALLY COMMON with U-under-A post -- the two posts marked "U" are NOT THE SAME. (This is a total contradiction to earlier Lionel practice. Example: on the postwar ZW, there are four U posts. They are all electrically strapped together inside the transformer. Any one is as good as another. This is NOT the case with the CW-80, and connecting the U posts together on the CW-80, either deliberately or accidentally may well "blow" the transformer.

The safe and simple way to proceed is to always run TWO wires from the transformer to the accessory: B to one post on the accessory; U-under-B to the other post.on the accessory. If using posts A and U-under-A to power the track (as is customary) under no circumstances should you connect either post on the accessory to U-under-A..

Some accessories make this "no-no conection" automatically. This must be guarded against and avoided. For example, the little plugs that can be used to provide constant voltage to 022 turnouts (switches) simplify their circuitry by using the outer rails as their common. (Some say "ground," or "return." )This feature directly shorts-out the two U terminals on the CW-80 and therefore cannot be used with it.* The bottom line is that you cannot use the accessory terminals of a CW-80 to power the switches if you are powering the track with posts A and U-under-A.

Other accessories, in particular those which make electrical contact with either of the outer rails of the track, cannot be used for the same reason.

An accessory such as the original 397 rubber belt coal loader can be used, as long as (1) you don't permit the base to contact the track -- the 397 circuitry uses its own base as common -- and (2) you resist the temptation to run one post of the accessory to a conventient common ground, such as a nearby outer rail. Unfortunately, the original instructions for the accessory may very well recommend such a hook-up, with is fine with a ZW but can be a disaster with a CW-80.

Some accessories, such as the original newstand with the little dog and the fire hydrant, are made of plastic and are electrically isolated from the common ground, UNLESS you do the same thing as above, namely connect one of the accessory's posts to the track or other common ground. Again, this would be a fine and proper circuit with a ZW, but a total no-no with a CW-80.

There is a very simple but annoying rule with the CW-80: Always check your circuits to ensure that there is no electical connection, deliberate or unintentional, between the two U posts on the transformer.

*I am aware that there are at least two workarounds for this lack-of-common-ground "feature" of the CW-80. Evidently they both work, but one results in a reversal in function; that is, the bell button sounds the whistle/horn, and the whistle button rings the bell. Some folks have said they can live with that. I refuse to.

The other workaround involves re-wiring inside the transformer case and I will say no more about it.

Unless you receive a full CW-80 Owner's Manual with your train set, I strongly recommend visiting the Lionel website and downloading a copy from Customer Service. When you have it, I further recommend that you check out the hook-up diagram on page 5, I think it is, and compare it to the text. If they differ, and they did the last time I checked, make pen-and-ink changes to the diagram. The text is correct, the diagram is not.

I do not know whether the accompanying section about using the CW-80 with FastTrack is correct or not, but you ought to check it out.

The guiding principles are: for throttle to track, post A goes to the CENTER Rail, whereas U-under-A connects to an OUTER rail. For accessories, B goes to the power-in post and U-under-B goes to the other post.. Never allow anything connected to U-under-A to come into electrical contact with U-under-B.

Other forumites will advise you to get a second transformer for your accessories (Lionel makes a little one) or to junk the CW-80 altogether.
These are not my positions, but I have to admit that with the CW-80 there is both more and less than meets the eye. This subject is a can of worms.

wolverine49

[Kooljock1]

Sounds like the two of you have been bit! Lot's of questions, so I'll try to tackle them in order:

As mentioned above, almost all "O" Gauge trains will run on FasTrack from a wheel flange perspective. I have not tried my Pre-War stuff on my daughters FasTrack Switches yet, so I can't be sure of that. Also some Marx Trains made in the late Pre-War and Early Post War periods had gears that went right to the edge of the driver flanges, making them incompatible with almost everything made since!

Your only incompatibility issues will stem from the overall SIZE of the engines and cars you choose to purchase. Your PENNSYLVANIA FLYER is from LIONEL's "Traditional" sized line. These are under-scale sized trains that will run on pretty much every three rail "O" Gauge track system ever concieved.

But larger scale-sized engines can be so long, that their wheel-base and frame length will over-hang curves and switches on tighter diameter curves. This will cause derailments.

The minimum curve diameter of FasTrack is 36", or "O-36". Any train designed to run on O-36 or smaller (ie: O-27 or O-31) will work. However an engine designed to run on wider curves such as O-54, might not make it through a FasTrack O-36 switch.

This is why LIONEL has cataloged FasTrack in O-36, O-48, O-60, O-72, and O-84 diameters, and switches in O-36, O-60, and O-72. For complete details on this, see pages 173-175 of the current LIONEL catalog.

http://www.LIONEL.com

Yes, you can attach FasTrack to "O" Gauge track using the "Transition" piece listed in the catalog. Many were doing this so they could use accessories like the Operating Milk Car and Barrel Car, but LIONEL has since listed an Operating Track section with removable redbed sides for use with those. The only cars that need transition pieces now are the Cattle Cars and the Operating Brakeman cars. There is also no way to connect the triggers used by the Tie-Jector and Boro Crane...yet.

For track activated accessories, again see pages 173-175 in the current catalog. There is a complete description there. But be advised, that as mentioned above the CW-80's accessory side is some how out of phase with the track side.

As far as a table goes, I'd head out to a Lowes or Home Depot, and pick up a couple of 4 X 8 sheets of plywood, some 1 X 3's for bracing, and some 1 X 4's for "L" shaped legs. Then build your own 8 X 8 table.

Be sure to check Kalmbach Publishing on their beginners guides to LIONEL trains. You'll find a link here on the home page. Andf keep the questions coming!

Jon [8D]

[jimhaleyscomet]

--For boards, consider one or two 30" wide (or 36" wide) hollow core doors from the lumber store. For Fastrak you will need two doors. I keep my two doors together with removeable pin hinges. Remember that a 36 " wide door will not go through a 36" door inside your house without needing to be tipped. You can set the doors on a 6 ft folding table or just run them on the floor. Glue carpet padding or 1/2" foam to the top to reduce noise. The "door" layout provides a very light portable train platform.

What trains will run on which track? Only the most expensive or very old trains might not run on fastrak. Many more trains might not run on 027, however most will especially if you use low profile switches (like K-line)..

As for track, it was discussed in the following post some of which is below.

http://www.trains.com/community/forum/topic.asp?page=-1&TOPIC_ID=53278&REPLY_ID=591940#591940

--Lionel Tubular -027. Cheapest to purchase, not so realistic. K-line makes affordable 027 separate power switches. Avoid Lionel 027 remote switches. They only work off track power and not very well with conventional loco low voltages.
--Lionel Tubular -031. Less cheap to purchase and still not molded in roadbead.
--K-line snap track. Sometimes available cheap at hobby lobby (50% off this week), much easier to assemble than 027 and 031 tubular. Molded in cross members more realistic and more durable than tubular but still no molded in road bead. Snap track can be cut in half to make tubular transition piece set. Note that K-line is now bankrupt so the future is uncertain.
--027, 031 tubular and snap track easy to cut to special lengths and to make insulated track.
--Lionel fast track. Easy to assemble but loud. Not the widest selection of track. Relatively expensive with nice molded in roadbead. Very noisey relative to MTH track. Very durable, great for floor running layouts. No dead spots in between tracks.
--MTH realtrax. Easier to assemble than tubular, but harder than snaptrack or fastrack. Molded base does a better job of reducing wheel on rail sound. Connectors on ends often break. You can be sure of needing to fix a few joints anytime you reset up a relatively large (more than 16 pieces) layout on the floor (I run a lighted caboose around to find the open joint and then add a jumper wire).
--Any track can mate to anyother track if you are willing to cut a straight track in the middle to make two transition tracks. You might need to add wire jumpers across the open rails (unless the end of a power block) and you will probably need to shim up the tracks to the same height. Lionel and MTH sell an O to Fastrak/Realtrak conversion pieces.


Hope this helps.

Jim H

[Anonymous]

So, basically, in regards to tracks, I can buy the fastrack to O track transition and use any manufacturer's track that will work with O track, but may need to do a little "wiring" or "rigging?

[Kooljock1]

You can, but in spite of the previous posts there are now MORE types and styles of FasTrack available than available in "O" or "O-27". In fact, I believe there are more available than any other type of track with the exception of Atlas O.

Jon [8D]

[jimhaleyscomet]

I agree with Kooljock....if you like fastrak then build on what you have...unless cost is a big factor. You can use fastrak until you need something else and then you can use the adapters. The fastrak / O adapter works with O track. It will take a little crimping / shim effort to use O27 with fastrak. If cost is a big factor, then 027 is cheaper...especially when you start adding switches.

Jim H

[phillyreading]

If going to another track type you must first use Lionel's Fastrac to O gauge adapter track that retails for around $6.50 for two five inch sections, then adapt what ever track to the Fastrac adapter. I am not using Fastrac but am using Lionel tubelar track with GarGraves switches & DZ 1000 switch machines by Z-Stuff. To use GarGraves track you must have GarGraves to O gauge adapter pins. Not every manufacturer of track will make an insulating or adapter pin. Insulating pins for GarGraves track use K-Line S gauge insulating pins and wittle them down a little with an exacto knife.
Lee in West Palm Beach FL

[Anonymous]

Everyone has been a major help, but I have a few more questions. I am starting to understand the accessory part a bit better, etc., but please explain what "block" sections are. Also, if I really want to start buying locomotives (cars) with real sounds (brakes, bells, crew speech, etc) what is the best place to start. Do I need to buy the entire TCCM modules, etc.

Any andall help is appreciated

[Anonymous]

If you are already starting wth FasTrack, I would recommend sticking with FasTrack. I can think of no compelling reason to mix-and-match if you're planning to buy trains made in recent years.