TMCC - Uncoupling Track Power?

[Anonymous]

This is all new to me!

I’m in the process of building my first TMCC based layout. I want to use 4 x FasTrack uncoupling sections. I have a CW-80 power supply from a starter set, which I intended to use to power switches and the uncoupling track. However, the uncoupling manual states “Do not use the accessory terminals on your CW-80 Transformer. “ Can I use the CW-80 for accessories (it will not be used for track power) or what power supply would be best to power the uncoupling track?

Any advice appreciated.

Keith…

[Roger Bielen]

I'm running TMCC but am using a TPC with 2 X 108W PH's and use an auxilliary transformer for my switches and uncoupling tracks set at approx. 14V. With the 80 CW accessory terminals I would think the only limiting factor would be what the voltage is and that it doesn't exceed the rating of the uncoupling track, though I would think that it would take 18V for the second that it takes to uncouple a car.

[Jumijo]

I just bought an FasTrack uncoupling track this weekend. I'm running mine off of track power, but I did read the blurb about TMCC and the accessory ports on the transformer. You most likely have to hook it up to a TMCC accessory power source, then give it a TMCC address. Just a guess.

Jim

[Roger Bielen]

Not having the Fastrack uncoupling track I would think that it is like any other, one wire goes to common and the other is the power supply with a momentary contact N.O. button in the line to activate it.

[Big_Boy_4005]

[#welcome] to the forum Keith.

I don't have any experiece with the new fastrack uncouplers, but the O and 027 versions use the outside rail ground. When you install a control switch to activate it the source needs to be hot (voltage) from the same source as the ground.

The other important thing is to make sure that the electrical switch is a momentary one. A normally open spring loaded type, one that can't accidentally be left on. The electromagnet coil can fry if left on too long.

There may actually be a way to control your uncoupling and unloading functions using the Cab-1 remote. In this scenario, the power will have to be supplied through one of the accessory controlers.

This should really be similar to using fixed voltage to control switches. If you are currently drawing power from the rails, and using TMCC in command mode, there is already full power going to the uncoupler. So, max voltage should not be a problem.

[Jumijo]

TMCC Operating Track Controller (OTC) item # 6-14185 ($74.99)
Use to remove all the hard wired operating track activation buttons. Operates RC and uncoupling track sections from CAB-1 controller . . . Is programmable to operate 2 RC track sections or 4 uncoupling track sections.

You'd be right at the maximum number of uncoupling tracks.

The uncoupling track comes with a nice wiring harness with quick connectors. A crystal clear TMCC wiring diagram is provided in the FasTrack uncoupling track directions. What isn't clear is what to hook it up to other than the track's transformer.

My guess is that this is the best thing to wire it into. That way, you will have a TMCC address.

Jim

[Anonymous]

Thanks for the replies so far!

I do plan to control the uncouplers with the TMCC-operating-track-controller. However, the TMCC manual says don't use the track voltage for uncoupling track (I guess at 18V it's too high and can damage the uncoupler track section) and it suggests using separate accessory power. I want to use the CW-80 to power the uncoupler but the CW-80 manual says don't use it for the uncoupling track. I don't understand why I can't use the fixed accessory output of the CW-80 - it is factory set at 12v ac but can be adjusted.

Your thoughts are appreciated.

Keith...

[Big_Boy_4005]

Keith, what you want to do sounds perfectly reasonable to me. I have noticed that Lionel's instructions have been kind of strange from time to time. They often come across as being for the technically challenged, thus for those who have some understanding of electricity, they are convoluted or sometimes just plain stupid. It is almost like people who don't understand this stuff are writing the instructions.

Case in point, the new "train orders" accessory. A member here contacted me because he wanted to triger it using an insulated rail. The Lionel instructions had a diagram that was overly complex using 2 relays. It left me scratching my head, WHY? He got it working with a single relay, which was all that was required for the situation.

Back to your question, maybe Lionel is trying to discourage inexperienced users from trying "fancy" stuff for safety reasons. If you do it incorrectly, there could be problems. Perhaps Lionel considers this to be "fancy" wiring, because in this scenario, it involves the track and 2 supplies. They need to share a common ground.

No big deal really, especially if the power supplies have grounded plugs on them. In the old days, you had to make sure supplies were in phase. Now if Lionel has been consistant in their terminal naming, all of the U posts should be secondary ground.

A volt meter is one way to test this, a light bulb is another. You could even touch the leads to check polarity. No spark with voltage on, same pole.

I say give it a try, you should be fine.

[Anonymous]

Thanks for the reply. I get the feeling you're right about the instruction manual. This'l make you laugh. I called lionel earlier and spoke with a nice young woman. I said, I'm looking to build a TMCC controlled layout and wanted to use a CW-80 to control an uncoupling track. She said she was sorry but they only provided support for Lionel products. When I told her they were all Lionel products, she said technicians were available Wednesday and Friday.

The small TMCC accessory transformer is 0-18v 1.25 amp 36 watt - the CW-80 is 0-18v 5.0amp 80 watt. I think I'll give it a try as suggested.

Hopefully, the items needed will arrive this week.

Thanks, Keith...

[Big_Boy_4005]

Keith, it would be funny if it wasn't so sad.[;)] The guy I mentioned in the other post was equally frustrated when he contacted Lionel for technical support. I've found that the guys who actually use the trains can be a better source of info than the manufacturers.

Stick with us here on the forum, and we'll keep you on the "right track". [swg]

[Anonymous]

The problem with the CW-80 is that it is designed bass-ackwards. The A and B pins are connected internally while the track U and accessory U pins are separate. Most accessories are designed to work connected to track common (either directly or through an isolated outside rail) but you cannot connect the common (track U and acc U) pins together on the CW-80.

Some people have gotten around this by swapping the connections (connect A & B to track common, track U to track hot, acc U to accessories) but this swaps the whistle and bell buttons.

If you dedicate a CW-80 to accessory power (A and Track U open, Accessory U connected to track common and B is accessory power) you should be OK.

Daniel Lang

[ADCX Rob]

Keith,

You should be fine using the CW-80 for accessories. The manual(s) make the statement about the uncoupling track under the assumption you are using the CW for track power too... and this would be a no-no considering the "backwards" wiring scheme used in the CW (there is a lot on this and other forums about this Lionel blunder) .

It actually could be done, but can you imagine customer service trying to explain to a customer that you need to connect the wires backwards - red to black post & black to red post - and that now the whistle works the bell & vice-versa. I have had success using the CW with a train & accessories in this manner.

The manual(s) allude(s) to a reverse hook-up twice - once above a diagram showing tubular track with center rail(1) connected to the U post, & outside (2) connected to the A post the narrative describes the opposite, and again in the section on phasing your layout for use w/ multiple loops & transformers(here they mention the whistle/bell switcharoo too!)... this may be in the set manuals not in the transformer manuals.

Now for the caveats... to phase the common posts of the CW(the red "A" posts are common) with the TMCC bricks, you may have to make your own "phase adaptor" for the AC line - equivalent to grinding down the wide spade on the plug to insert it in the opposite direction - a REALLY BIG NO-NO! This will obviously void any warranty and UL Listing compliance. I must put a disclaimer here - do this AT YOUR OWN RISK

The end result is that the CW can now provide two ranges of accessory voltage - one programmable/fixed, the other variable/fixed by the throttle handle. Actually a pretty decent set-up.

I sure wish Lionel had done this power supply right(the K-Line Power Chief 120 fixed the Lionel goofs). Maybe the DW-90 or DW-100 is not too far off in the future, with all the mistakes corrected!

Rob

[Anonymous]

Thank you all for the replies - now it all makes sense. Somehow I'm sure you'll see me here again with other questions. Hopefully as I gain experience I'll be able to contribute with answers too!

Thanks again, Keith...

[BR60103]

jaabat: really, an extra $75 to operate 4 uncouplers on TMCC?
I haven't been able to afford one uncoupler for normal operation.

[Jumijo]

QUOTE: Originally posted by BR60103

jaabat: really, an extra $75 to operate 4 uncouplers on TMCC?
I haven't been able to afford one uncoupler for normal operation.

I was just passing along information. I don't even run TMCC.

Jim

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by Daniel Lang

The problem with the CW-80 is that it is designed bass-ackwards. The A and B pins are connected internally while the track U and accessory U pins are separate. Most accessories are designed to work connected to track common (either directly or through an isolated outside rail) but you cannot connect the common (track U and acc U) pins together on the CW-80.

Some people have gotten around this by swapping the connections (connect A & B to track common, track U to track hot, acc U to accessories) but this swaps the whistle and bell buttons.

If you dedicate a CW-80 to accessory power (A and Track U open, Accessory U connected to track common and B is accessory power) you should be OK.

Daniel Lang

So If I read this right, if one was to take the CW-80 and rewire the connections as above and then rewire the bell and whistle buttons(effectively swapping them), this would correct the CW-80s flaws and would make it work correctly and it would then work with the accessories and such easier? This seems like a simple fix to those of us that work with electronics normally. Could it be this simple?

[Anonymous]

BTT

[ADCX Rob]

QUOTE:

So If I read this right, if one was to take the CW-80 and rewire the connections as above and then rewire the bell and whistle buttons(effectively swapping them), this would correct the CW-80s flaws and would make it work correctly and it would then work with the accessories and such easier? This seems like a simple fix to those of us that work with electronics normally. Could it be this simple?

Robert,

No, it's not that simple, unfortunately. The bell circuit, which provides the DC polarity to the track is programmed on the chip to provide a 4 second activation period. So the best you can do w/o reflashing the chip is a minimum 4 second whistle/horn(formerly "bell"), and to hold down the bell button (formerly "whistle") long enough to turn on/off the bell.

Rob

[Anonymous]

Hmmm..... Ok, thanks. Knew it couldn't be that easy.[(-D]