using post war transformers with latest engines

[Anonymous]

[:)][:)] [?] I have a post war 275 watt zw transformer & it's output is 8-20v. The newer transformers like lionels zw and mth all models are rated at any were from 0-up to 20 v. My question is how does the first 8v effect the starting speed when using an old type transformer with new equipment. I was into Ho gauge earlier and now have begun a layout in O gauge. I am use to running my trains at a slower speed. I just picked up a brand new lionel Gp -38 diesel on ebay and found that at 8 v it started to fast. From what I understand the newer enginges need less voltage than the older models. Should I try to modify My zw or get a newer model. They tell me I could use the zw if I went into dcc stage, I don't think I'll get into it for now until my feet wet with new o gauge. My last question is when buying old models of engines is there any kind of info about what power should be used when operating the old eqiupment felix

[Anonymous]

When you use a ZW with command control, such as TMCC, for engine operation the throttle is constatly set at 15-18 volts anyway depending on your preference for bright equipment lights or not!

[Anonymous]

Yes thank you leonard for responce. Yes i am aware of the need of 18 v for tmcc and dcc digital control.but what are the other issues about that I am questioning ? How does that effect the cruise control with the proto 2 boards that mth offer with their sets? felix

[Anonymous]

Yes thank you leonard for responce. Yes i am aware of the need of 18 v for tmcc and dcc digital control.but what are the other issues about that I am questioning ? How does that effect the cruise control with the proto 2 boards that mth offer with their sets? felix

[Jim Duda]

Maybe you guys can clear something up for me...I have DCS and TMCC both powered from one LW 125W txfrmer through the VARIABLE In/Out of the TIU. Rarely do I go above 14 volts and usually operate Command in the 10V - 12V ranges. Saves on lights and smoke elements.

The MTH locos smoke up a storm @ 10 - 12Volts, the K-Line TMCC needs 14. Couplers fire reliably 11V - 13 V on DCS and TMCC. All functions perform flawlessly.

So why do you guys run Command at such high voltages? Large trains? Want lots of smoke?

[1688torpedo]

I would never use high voltages with my Train's. If I ever set up a permanent layout it will be conventional with a postwar ZW with the proper gauge wiring & breakers to boot. All of the extra Electronic Wizardry in todays Trains are only something else waiting to go wrong and re-program or upgrade to something newer. This is what makes Pre-Postwar Trains so desirable to me. And, Like Jim said, Lower voltages saves on lights & smoke generator's.

[Anonymous]

Felix
A postwar ZW is not going to harm any engine your run whether operated Conventionally when using the ZW as both manual Controller and power source or, whether just using it as the power source when connected to a TIU for DCS or linked to a Command Base/Cab 1 set up for TMCC operation.

[Anonymous]

Leonard I am just thinking about the starting speed. The engine takes off very fast when I can actually get it to move at 8v. I would like it to start and gradually bring it up to a speed that I would like it to run at. Like I have stated before the new transformers start at 0 volts. The engine that I'm trying to do is my lionel RR CLUB GP-38 DIESEL ENGINE made in 1992. Felix

[pbjwilson]

I don't think a GP-38 of that vintage is going to start slow. Jackrabbit starts and stops. The newer engines are made to start slow and run slow. It's classic Lionel performance. Made to run fast.

[Anonymous]

I just tried a cw80 transformer and it has a feature that makes it ramp up slowly no matter how fast you move the throttle handle. nice easy starts. try one, only about $50 on ebay

[jimhaleyscomet]

Ditto on the CW-80 transformer as long is there a light somewhere on the track. About the only way I can think of slowing down the jackrabbits at 8Volts is to add several cars (especially older high friction cars). My DCS starts at 5 volts and some engines jackrabbit even then.

Jim H

[winrose46]

A model RR technican (repairman) was emphatic that I should run DCS at 18 volts even though it works at 15 Volts. Another one indicated that I could run it at 15 volts when running conventional as well and that would not hurt the electrical components. I have not asked MTH directly but that might be the next step. The other consideration with the post war ZW's is to make sure that you are using inlight 10 amp quick blow fuses to protect the electrical components.

[CB_Fan]

Although a little more expensive than a CW80, you might consider getting a TMCC Powermaster and CAB1, and use the CAB1 to control speed of your conventional locomotives. I find much better response, especially of whistle/horn, with the CAB1 control rather than using transformer control (1033). And it gives you freedom to walk around rather than being confined to your transformer.

[Anonymous]

A few points:
I was told not to use older style transformers with modern engines (EVEN if running strictly conventional) because the circuit breakers in the older transformers do not blow fast enough to prevent damage to the electronics of today's engines. I have a modern ZW and I can tell you that if a pilot wheel of an engine leaves the track on a curve, the circuit breakers in those 180 watt power bricks for the ZW blow faster than I could possible realize that a problem exists. They click off in less than a hair of a split second. So, I think the older transformers are not that fast, and a simple inadvertant wheel touching the middle rail could result in some bad damage to your modern engines.

My modern ZW does start out at much lower voltage than 8 Volts. I have the Lionel voltmeter attachment on my modern ZW and I can start at 2-3 volts.

I have heard that some people have trouble with the Lionel CW-80 transformers. I've never even seen one, so I am not saying not to get one, but I will say that I think I've heard that some MTH engines do not run with them. Please, somebody correct me if I'm wrong.

[Anonymous]

Yes, Felix, using a transformer (like the ZW and others) that starts out at 8v can be a problem when using some modern equipment. If you use a transformer that starts at a lower voltage, you'll notice the difference right away (smoother starts, slower running).

Some post-war, MPC, and modern-era Lionel transformers offered a lower starting voltage for just this reason. It doesn't help that line voltage, what comes from the outlet, is a bit higher (about 125v) that what it was when the ZW designed (about 115-117v). This also contributes to the problem.

There's a couple of work-arounds. Certainly, you could get another transformer that offers the lower starting voltage to run your modern trains. You could add some resistance to your circuit to lower the voltage. Lionel actually made some variable resistors for this purpose in the Pre-war era. If you can find one - I think one of them was Lionel #81- I don't think they're very expensive, book value is like 5-20$ in VG condition. It would go between your ZW and the track.

I have a handy device called a variac which is simply a variable transformer with a plug on one end and an outlet on the other. I plug my ZW into this and by changing the input voltage to the ZW by turning the knob on the variac, I can fine tune the starting voltage to whatever I want!

Otherwise, I don't think your ZW could be modifed to put out a lower voltage.

There's also lots of answers from the TMCC/DCS world, but you said you're not quite ready for that.

Good Luck!

[fwright]

Most of the postwar transformers have the ability to select lower voltage ranges. The 1033/1044 can do 0-11 or 5-16 volts depending on terminals used. The LWs and KWs have a similar capability. So does the R and RW. I don't have a ZW or the diagrams in front of me so I can't speak to a ZW.

I have encountered this problem with mixing modern and postwar engines. If wired for the 6-16 volt range, I can't slow modern engines enough. If set on the 0-11 range, the postwar locos barely move with the throttle wide open. I've rigged a 10 amp toggle switch to allow me to switch back and forth between the ranges on the transformers I use for train running. Note that switching the variable range usually changes the accessory voltage too! I get around this by using separate transformers for accessories which are especially voltage critical.

yours in transforming
Fred Wright

[Anonymous]

Hi guy's Wow ! A lot of imput on this post past few hours. Thank you all so much for your info.I re-tested my zw transformer for output & now it reeds about 6v. Just replaced meter with new battery.I would like to get it down to about 2v's or so if I can. That variac device look's interesting. Where & how much does cost. I 'm just wondering what else I can use for a load to get it down 3 0r 4 volts. Felix

[daan]

Felix, you could add a few rectifiers in between (with a switch to pass them by for postwar.) Every rectifier "eats" 0.7 volts, so if you put a few of them in series with your track, you can lower the voltage. Be sure you have rectifiers capable to bare the amps needed.

[lionelsoni]

Using a Variac or Powerstat to get the starting voltage down to 3 or 4 volts will also reduce all the other output voltages proportionately. The maximum voltage will then be 7.5 to 10 volts--too low; and the whistle relay might even not pull in.

If you could find a transformer with a 4-volt secondary and a 10 or 15 ampere current rating, you could put it in series with the ZWs common, but out of phase, to drop all the voltages by that amount.

[ADCX Rob]

QUOTE: Originally posted by felixg

[:)][:)] [?] I have a post war 275 watt zw transformer & it's output is 8-20v. I am use to running my trains at a slower speed. I just picked up a brand new lionel Gp -38 diesel on ebay and found that at 8 v it started to fast. Should I try to modify My zw or get a newer model.

felixg,

I think the answer is neither. The GP-38's have dual can motors, so the trick would be to wire the motors in series, instead of in parallel(as they are from the factory). This will bring the starting speed & minimum speed, as well as top speed, down to a more prototypical range. I started doing this mod on Williams & K-Line engines about 15 years ago to slow them down. Also, this cuts the load on the reversing unit circuit boards in half(less heat under the hood).

Keeping the track voltage up where it was designed will help to minimize voltage drop over track and bus wire distances.

You could take it one step further, too, if you wish, and install a concealed DPDT slide switch, maybe near the E-Unit switch, to select "high range" or "low range". Some folks will notice that recent K-Line dual motored engines now come with this feature!

Rob