What big transformer to buy?

[dwiemer]

Again, I find myself seeking the advice of my learned forum members. For those with a good size layout (I am building 20x24), what transformer set up would you use. I do not have, nor do I plan anytime soon, to go with a command control. I am thinking ZW or MTH 4000. Please educate me.
Thanks,
Dennis[bow]

[MartyE]

Well since you already said there is no CC in your future I would have to go with the Z4000. Me and my brother both own a new ZW and to be honest it is a fine piece but in my opinion the handles just drive me insane. Since I run command they are always up, They just don't have the "feel" of the originals. Very plastic like.

The Z4K has the meters and a fine set of handles. Of course you 2 less variable OPs but for conventional running I would choose it. It is a proven unit as are the new ZWs but if you're going to be using the handles I think you'll like the feel.

Electrically I think either one is a winner.

[willpick]

Don't overlook the new MRC Pure Power Dual transformer! It has the Volt & amp meters(analog instead of digital), and each side has 135 Watts output. The Z4K has more watts(180 per side), but is also a bit more money.

[ChiefEagles]

The new ZW's also have caused bell ringing and horn blowing problems [all the time and can not stop them] on Williams engies when running DCS. The MTH and MRC does not. The old ZW's and KW's do not cause this problem.

[ben10ben]

The ZW does have the potential to have more wattage, but very few people need to have 720 watts total. I personally have never used the Z4000, although I do know some people who use it and really like it.

I have to agree with Marty that the new ZW handles don't offer a whole lot. In my opinion, the old ZW handles offer just the right amount of resistance for use. The ones on the new ZW move way too easily.

[garyseven]

Z4K all the way!

[Jumijo]

QUOTE: Originally posted by willpick

Don't overlook the new MRC Pure Power Dual transformer! It has the Volt & amp meters(analog instead of digital), and each side has 135 Watts output. The Z4K has more watts(180 per side), but is also a bit more money.

I just got one of those MRC's for Christmas. Haven't even opened the box yet!

Jim

[MartyE]

The big plus for the new ZW is the built in Powermasters but since you are conventional only these would prove rather useless unless you have the commandbase/ cab1. Don't get me wrong the ZW for the way I'm using it is fantastic (command) but I think if I were conventional I'd get and old ZW or a Z4K.

[Anonymous]

Z4000 would be my preference.

[Anonymous]

Z4000.

[dwiemer]

As usual, this forum has been a wealth of information. Thanks guys! Jim, please let me know how you like your new rig. I have some time here as we are getting ready to break ground on the building, so the layout will be a little behind that.
Dennis

[dk99358]

I boutght one of the MRC's right after Thanksgiving. So far, it has run engines from MTH (locosound versions), a Beep, and K-Line with no problems.

When I was looking, new ZW's were not available and the MRC was over $100 cheaper than a Z4000. Right now I'm running conventional but may go command in the future. The MRC should work fine.

Only downside I see is that you only get one fixed voltage circuit but I had some smaller transformers available to provide other voltages so it wasn't really a problem for me.

Dale

[prewardude]

One important thing to consider here: The Z4000 uses a pure sine-wave signal (as does the MRC Pure Power), the new ZW uses a modified waveform, from what I understand; THAT'S why people are having problems with spurious bell-ringing, etc., with the new ZW. Personally, I would never use a transformer that doesn't use a pure sine-wave. One of these days, Lionel is going to learn this lesson, I hope. [:(!]

So go with The MRC Pure Power or the MTH Z4000.

Regards,
Clint

[daan]

I agree with Prewardude on that. Only pure sinewave guarantees no problems with whistle's and bell's from other manufacturers then Lionel. (Both are triggered with a change of the waveform, moving the wave up and down 3 volts seen from ground voltage. When a transformer doesn't give a pure sinus wave on the outlet, the electronics could see that disformation as a signal to blow the horn or ring the bell.)

[Jumijo]

Dale,

On the back of my MRC Pure Power Dual, there are 6 connector screw terminals, 2 for each track and 2 for accessories. All three sets hav COM labeled over one screw. Is that the outer rail wire post or the inner rail wire post for the tracks? Below is the labeling for all 6 screws terminals. If I hook up an accessory, which wire goes where?

Track A COM 14V COM TrackB COM


I'm not hooking this sucker up until I get some input!

Jim

[otftch]

I use CAB 1 with the 180 watt power bricks and trainmasters for conventional control.If your going to run more than one track it is great to have control in your hand and not to have to reach down for control levers.I run Lionel.K-line and Williams engines and have none of the whistle/horn problem others speak of.Of course I had to switch an MTH power source in to access all featuers of Mike's products,but this is easily accomplished.I run five tracks with one switched for Lionel or MTH.Lionel runs all the others with no problems.With the 180's I have yet to have any power issues.I run ABA diesels (2 powered) and fifteen Lionel pasenger cars with two lights each on one line.
Ed

[fwright]

Jim

The outer rail is used as common. Accessories that attach to the track, such as the PW cattle pen, 497 coal loader, etc, also use the common/ground wiring system. For accessories that are isolated from the track - lights, beacons, oil derricks - it doesn't matter, although convention would dictate that the on/off switch is placed in the non-common wire. Ironically, accessories that use an insulated third rail for activation depend upon an interrupted common (do their swtiching on the common side) system - just to confuse the issue!

yours in accessorizing
Fred

[spankybird]

QUOTE: Originally posted by prewardude

One important thing to consider here: The Z4000 uses a pure sine-wave signal (as does the MRC Pure Power), the new ZW uses a modified waveform, from what I understand; THAT'S why people are having problems with spurious bell-ringing, etc., with the new ZW. Personally, I would never use a transformer that doesn't use a pure sine-wave. One of these days, Lionel is going to learn this lesson, I hope. [:(!]

So go with The MRC Pure Power or the MTH Z4000.

Regards,
Clint

[#ditto]

Go for the pure sine wave! ! ! [:D]

[Jumijo]

Thanks, Fred!!!

Jim

[krapug1]

Another option for a large layout is the Lionel Z with 2, 167 controllers for Whistle/Horn Activation and Direction Control. I do not use comand control, so for me this has worked fine. I also installed an external circuit breaker. The only problem I ran into was getting
whistles to work, and by switching wires I solved the problem.

From what I have read the Z is supposed to deliver more power to the tracks than the ZW.

[nblum]

Do you have mainly Lionel or mainly MTH locos? If you have mainly MTH locos,
the Z4000 makes sense. If you have mainly Lionel locos, the new ZW makes sense. In no instance would I recommend getting reconditioned, or worse, unreconditioned 50 year old transformers, even to control postwar locos, as there are quality of control and safety issues involved that only the knowledgeable will enjoy solving.

My reasoning, based upon both personal experience and that reported by many others is as follows, noted on another thread about the MRC transformers:

"The manufacturers test their power supplies and systems with their own locomotives. Thus, at least IMO, it is a good idea in this particular branch of the hobby to stick with one manufacturer (e.g., Lionel or MTH) for control electronics for your locomotives. If you use Lionel electronics to control MTH locos, or vice versa, you do need more than average comfort with trouble shooting electronic/computer devices. At least with my approach, you know when things aren't working well, something is probably not working properly, as opposed to merely being partially or completely incompatible."

[garyseven]

Neil
Does the ZW have chopped or pure sine wave?

[nblum]

Here's my non-expert understanding. The new ZW has the equivalent of four Powermasters, but in addition it has firmware programming that fools (most of the time :) MTH PS1/PS2 locos into thinking they're putting out pure sine wave rather than adulterated sine wave. Which is why most MTH locos operate fine with the ZW but not at all with the Powermasters. The TPC400/300 also have the secret sauce that allow PS1 and PS2 locos to work with Lionel electronics (most of the time).

One might add that the Z4000 uses very similar electronic methods to the new ZW. These are solid state devices and, unlike the core wound transformers of old, do not put out the same waveform as the old Lionels. The Z4000, from what I've been told, puts out a different wave form from the ZW that emulates (most of the time) pure sine wave devices like the old ZWs.

There's a certain amount of black magic involved in these devices that no amount of math or circuit engineering seems to explain when they do funky stuff. But if I had primarily PS1/PS2 locos, plus postwar, I'd most likely go with the Z4000. If I had primarily Lionel or primarily TMCC locos in conventional mode, plus postwar type stuff, I'd go with the new ZW. Since I only have TMCC locos in command mode, I don't own either. I use Powerhouses (and one Powermaster) and a cab-1/command base. When I want to run something conventional, I have a reconditioned 1033 that I pull out for that rare occasion.

[dwiemer]

Thanks for all the information guys. I think I will stay away from the MRC and go with a Z4000 main and a PW- reconditioned ZW for accessories, backup, etc. I also have some CW80s and a few older 1033, trainmasters, etc.
dennis

[prewardude]

I wi***hey would just go back to making good, old-fashioned, induction-based transformers with coils and quit screwing around with the friggin' waveform! THAT would solve everything, wouldn't it? But, of course, that would cut into the profit margin, I suppose. [:(!]

[winrose46]

The Z4000 I think is the only UL approved toy transformer. Additionally the circuit breakers have protected all my engines' electronics. Using a PW ZW you need a 10 amp quick blowing fuse inline to each output circuit. I fried two boards on my Hudson before I learned about the fuses. For my loops I have purchased a Lionel 180 brick for one of my loops so that all my trains run on either of my Z4000's or the brick so I am not supporting radio shack with my numerous fuse purchases.

[Anonymous]

The circuit breakers/fuses really only protect the transformers, not the engine circuit board solder traces or fragile motor wires. You need spike arrestors such as PowerGard to protect against current spikes from derailments, etc.
The breakers in my TPCs, PowerHouses and those in the Z-4k are not fast-acting. Most are even cheaper versions of the Potter-Brumfield after market breakers we used to make up 4-channel Breaker Boxes.

[willpick]

The Z4000, as far as I know, is the only AC power source(it's not really a transformer) that has electronic current limiting. The circuit breakers are not in the Z4000 to protect the output of the unit, they protect the internal transforner. The Z4000 is basically a 60HZ oscillator and an audio amplifier with overcurrent protection & a few other circuits for programming PS1 engines,etc.
As has been noted, the lionel modern ZW has 4 powermasters inside. It works very well for command control. I have a Z4000 because I have a few PS1 engines that I will NOT convert to PS2 due to their unique sound sets, and I like the programming feature of the Z4K.
HTH!