horrible, depressing glue experience

[FJ and G]

OK, so I'm new at building structures intended for outdoor use. My toy train shed, which I posted pictures of a couple of weeks ago, is literally falling apart. Not the superstructure but the hundreds (thousands?) of wood shingles and siding.

I used Titebond III wood glue, intended for outdoor use and advertised as waterproof. However, the glue is dissolving!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

SOme garden RR guys said the reason it's not working is b/c I stained the wood siding (Thompson Water sealer) before gluing to the cedar superstructure. I should have glued it and then stained it.

Well, I thought that the fix might be simple so I got my nail brad air gun and fired 5/8 inch 18-gauge brads into the siding.

However, the brads don't have heads on them and the siding came right off.

So, in very cold weather, I went outside with Alex Plus DAP Windows, Doors, Trim & Siding waterproof acrylic latex adhesive with silicon and started applying that. However, my hands got cold and my back hurt from bending over and besides, there was moisture under the siding that didn't mix well with the caulk so I ended up dismantling the entire warehouse and bringing it indoors, where I'll need to now clean and dry the entire structure and then apply the caulking.

The Titebond III label didn't adequately warn me about applying over stain. The label ONLY says "surface must be clean and dry".

Anyway, any advice appreciated!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I don't want to repeat this.

I wish I had found this warning in an article (which I didn't) before going thru this.

[Anonymous]

David,
About the quickest and surest method would be to use 2 part epoxy. As I'm sure you know it's not gonna be any cake walk trying to remove the old glue and water seal to assure a good bond. I'm sorry to hear you're experiencing such problems with that impressive structure.

Bruce Webster

[FJ and G]

Thanks, Bruce for the idea.

Since last posting this topic, my nextdoor neighbor came over and instead of the air gun nailer, we are using a small electric stapler that also takes nails. Those seem to be doing the trick. I'm going to run some masking tape along the entire structure, as the vibrations from the nailer/stapler is causing more to fall off and hard to locate where they go.

I was very mad as you can tell from my initial post but I've taken some meds and calmed down :-) and will chalk it up to another hard learning lessen experience.

BTW, I'm\ glad I didn't continue using the silicon product as my neighbor said that the Waterseal would likely repel the caulking as well.
Cheers.

[ChiefEagles]

Good job, David. Getting his neighbor involved. Next thing you know, he will be asking you to help him build a RR. [;)][:)]

[Anonymous]

For glue advice, in other words, for how to glue (this) to (that), go to this site:
http://www.thistothat.com/index.shtml

It's probably a good idea to save that link somewhere on your favorites menu because they give advice for attaching anything to anything. It is good advice. You can enter any two types of material, wood, metal, fabric, paper, etc, and they tell you the best ways to glue those materials.

http://www.thistothat.com/index.shtml

[Anonymous]

Aren't too many adheasives that will work over fresh waterproofing stain. The silicone and oils that are used for waterproofing also repel the glue. Some urethane adheasives will get along but they have they tend to have their own issues/drawbacks. Glueing and then staining doesn't always turn out the way you would like either. If the glue dries transparent and you didn't notice some overage, the stain won't take. Perversity of the Universe tends to a maximum (Finagle's Law, ctsy Larry Niven)

[jfpaul]

The reason the brads popped through is that the air pressure was to high, but since you've fixed the problem I guess that's a moot point.
Staining/Sealing a wood is a process that involves causing all of the microscopic pores in the wood to become swelled shut/covered/ sealed, so there is no porous surface for any adhesive to actually stick to

[dwiemer]

Dave,
There was an episode of "the Train Show" that had a model builder who makes the outdoor displays for the NY Botanical Gardens, etc. He has a old wash sink that the drain pipe goes into an empty bucket. He then pours Poly Urethane over the whole model and sets it out to dry. He then repeats the process about 4 more times. He uses a whole gallon of PU and then saves the drained to use on the next application. If you have several structures to do, this may be the way to go. I am not sure if it will adhere to something that has already been stained/waterproffed yet though.
Dennis

[FJ and G]

Here's a picture of the shed outside w/wood falling off.

I'm hoping that the brads alone without any caulking or glue, will hold the boards.

I did, in fact, lower the air pressure on the air brad nailer but it wouldn't shoot nails w/lower pressue so the electric one (not pictured) is working, tho it's inconsistent in pumping them thru and I have to hammer some down.

Keeping fingers crossed.

Thx for ideas but I don't really want to try any glues affixed with Thompson water seal; it seems to repel everything!

[Anonymous]

The best outdoor glue I use is PL 400 structural adhesive. It sticks to frozen wood, metal, stone, just about anything. It is easy to use, as long as you use it sparingly and rembember to take tension off the caulking gun when you are not using it. You need naptha or another solvent to get it off your hands, so wear old gloves. It takes several days for it to wear off. I have seen 2x6s break trying to pull them apart after the PL dried, with the glue joint fully intact.
TOm

[dwiemer]

Dave,
The Train Show on RFD has the same builder that I mentioned earlier on, only now they are making the Christmas display. He has structures that he mentions that were built over 8 years ago. They show the method of pouring the Polyurethane over the structure, but it is not as detailed as the earlier show. The company is in Kentucky, though I don't recall the exact name. In any case, I hope you are able to repair your building and also develope a lasting method of keeping them together.
Dennis

[rrandb]

I know this may be a bit late but traditionally "clean and dry" refers to bare wood with no finish not just no dirt. The very last step in most building projects is finish. P>S> if you wipe the glue as you assemble and use the glue sparringly you should have no trouble stainning after assembly. Look at this way you have learned a leason you will never forget. This hobby is a never ending learning process. Some leasons are just easier than others. In a few years this will have gone from "Boy am I pissed" to "Hey have I got a funny story to tell"....[2c]

[FJ and G]

Thanks for your tips. I'm still wary about using ANY glue on that oil-based Thompson Water Seal. Another person said RTV 108 (room temperature vulcanizing) would glue even to oils and is used (or was used) in the aircraft and auto industry for door panels, windshields, etc.

Don't have experience in that.

I braided (nails) about a third of the structure so this will set me back some as far as lay out progress goes.

Even the skateboard/step 3M non-skid stuff I used to simulate roof tarpaper is coming off from the oils. I'm actually spiking it into place now.

I've got the whole structure inside dismantled as it's warmer and easier to work inside.

Yes, learned lesson.

It's kinda good it happened b/c I found out that the ballast under the shed was actually sinking into the clay and found I'll have to excavate a trench about 18 inches deep below all structures and track and fill with rocks. 18 inches is the depth that the shale layer begins.

I suppose real railroads must also deal with clay and stuff too.

Anyway, thanks for tips on glue but I think I'll join the pieces mechanically as I don't know of any glue that's proven to stick to TW sealer.

Thanks tho and any other tips appreciated!