Quick question for the "Hi Railers"

[Anonymous]

I've always understood "scale" model railroading with as realistic as posible trains and scenery, and on the other hand I've also understood "toy" train operations with out of the box trains & equipment set up with little regard to scale or realistic operations. I have personally partaken in and enjoy both at the same time on seperate layouts in different gauges. I grasp the concept of both of these ideas taken seperatly. What I don't get is the "hi rail" mentality. As I understand it, it's out of the box toy trains run on 3 rail track but with high detail, scale appearance, realistic track plans, and hi quality scenery. What I can't get past is the idea of trying to be so realistic but still running on track with 3 rails. Can someone out there explain this concept to me and what the interest, or intent is in modeling this way? Take O gauge for example, wouldn't you just go to 2 rail O if you wanted the big trains and a highly realistic looking layout? Just curious. Never understood this part of the hobby. Thanks in advance.

-B

[wrmcclellan]

RRagain,

Interesting points. I have modeled in HO, O Toy and HiRail, and some O scale.

I like the Hi-Rail as I can run pure toy trains and semiscale stuff on the same layout. Some complain about high prices for semi-scale (I call it semi scale because it is scale in size, but has toy train wheels, flanges and operates on small radii curves), but those folks have apparently never looked at an equivalent O scale unit. A new articulated O scale loco runs in the $3000 price range whereas the same loco can be had in Hi Rail for $1500. A large diesel in O scale is around $2500 whereas in O Hi Rail it can be obtained for $800. An O scale passenger car can run $800 each, whereas in Hi RAil it is about $100-$125 each (and even cheaper as a set).

O scale DCC is very expensive to get started in vs MTH or Lionel command systems. BTW - the O scale stuff I mentioned above does not include a sound system or DCC components.

I can get a "traditional" sized articulated steamer that is scale proportioned and will run on 031 or 042 track. I can get more layout with larger locos in 8 x 12 feet. If I went O scale, I could only run a GE 44 tonner or SW1's etc. in the same space (and that assumes the body mounted Kadee couplers stay coupled.

With Hi-Rail, I am less concerned if my scenery is "perfect." I can also add some Dept 56 buildings and not worry about it.

As a final note, when my non-train-buff friends visit, they get a real kick out of running some old Lionel along with some new. It is something a lot of people can relate to. When I had an HO scale layout, it was, "that's nice", but there was little interest and some fear damaging your work of art.

Regards,
Roy

[Big_Boy_4005]

Believe it or not, there are advantages to 3 rail trains.

Let's start with curves. The sharp curves of 3 rail O make it possible to create a layout on a 4x8 sheet of plywood. Can't have a circle of 2 rail O in that space.

One of my favorites is easy electrical. No fancy wiring for reverse loops and wyes. That third rail in the center being used for power means that the running rails can be isolated from each other, allowing for easy train detection or accessory operation.

Deep flanges make for fewer derailments.

Oversized knuckle couplers make it possible to operate them electro-magneticly , which in turn allows for them to be command controlled.

Gargraves and Atlas track look pretty good with their blackened center rails.

I'm sure there are a few more reasons why people like to model with 3 rail trains. I justcan't think of them right now.

[wrmcclellan]

Hi Elliot - looks like you are making some nice progress on your layout. Thanks for your points and the photo.

Regards,
Roy

[Big_Boy_4005]

Thanks Roy, and you're welcome. I thought I was going to get the first word in on this one, but I'm a very slow typist, and you beat me to it by 4 minutes.

Where are you getting your diesel prices? I've been picking up TMCC equipt models for around $250 a pop on Ebay. If I was willing to go an extra $100 per, the selection would be huge.[;)]

[Jumijo]

I'm a little behind the curve on the definition of high-rail as well. I'm running three rail O27 trains. The scenery on my layout is somewhat realistic. Plasticville buildings co-exist with scratchbuilts on a realisticly terrained and foliated table top. Does that make me a high railer? I don't know. I' don't really care either. The layout is looking the way I want it to, and that's all that counts. Buy and run what you like. Make your scenery the way you want it. There seems to be no right or wrong in O guage, the way there is in the smaller scales. I like that.

Jim

[FJ and G]

nice progress shot, Elliot.

Reason for 3 rails:

1. nostalgia for old farts

2. a few years back when people started getting into O, 3 rails had much more offerings. Of course today, 2 rail has more and more; but in the meanwhile, many of us already invested in 3-rails. And the 3rd rail doesn't really bother me that much. The swinging pilots look a lot more funny.

[Anonymous]

I agree with the responses made so far. My small 5x8 O layout is a combination of what could be called "toy" (FasTrack, Lionel annimated Barber Shop, AF Oil Drum Loader, etc.), and structure and scenic details that most "scale guys" would be proud to have on their layouts. My primary goal was an unusual one: to have a layout that would entertain Grandchildren, guests, and myself for a minimum of 15 minutes BEFORE turning-on the trains.

[palallin]

"If it ain't 1:1 scale AND generating revenue, it's a toy."

Some toys are more faithful to their prototypes, some less, but all compromise. We have a continuum, not a dichotomy.

Personally, my interests run the gamut: I really enjoy tin plate Standard Gauge trains, for example, but I melt over a fully-detailed steam engine.

My own on-going compromise is to develop a 3-rail, dual-gauge track that accomodates 2-rail O, 3-rail O, and On30 (with VERY complicated wiring). I want to run them all: my old Marx and MPC Lionels I got for Christmas when I was a kid, my Hi-rail, semi-scale Modern Era Lionel, and fullly detailed 2-rail.

I think ALL trains are great, and, though not all of them are for me (personally, when they get samller than O, my interest tends to fade), I sure do appreciate all the approaches to the hobby. And I refuse to be insulted when it's said that I am playing. You dang betcha I'm playing!

[IRONROOSTER]

Hi Rail originally was a way for people to have a more realistic layout without having to build the cars and locomotives. That reason has disappeared now that there is so much Scale RTR (a lot of it is the same stuff with scale wheels). But the tighter curves and easier wiring still make it attractive. Now that RTR has extended to all the scales anyone can build a layout without having to build cars or locomotives - and there is an evergrowing number of built up structures. Plus there is still more stuff available in 3 rail and it's more affordable especially steam engines.

Enjoy
Paul

[Anonymous]

I prefer the scale look on the newer diesels, with full sound and TMCC command control, but I also like the simplicity of 3 rail track with no reverse loops, remote control couplers, ect. There are many ways to hide the center rail, Lionel knew this in the late 50's and 60's with its Super-O track. My newer Lionel Alco RS-11 is as detailed as my HO scale ones, but it has full sound and command control right from the factory. Scale 2 rail O is nice but pricy and takes up loads of space with its manditory wide curves. With my overhead layout around the ceiling the deep flanges prevent derailments and expensive damage to the trains. When I get the space again for a layout it will be a HiRail layout. Cheers Mike

[Anonymous]

Because my model railroading interest extends to several scales, I'll likely never have room for the kind of Hi-Rail (three-rail O gauge) layout I would really like to have, but I WILL ultimately have a Hi-Rail O gauge pike of some type. It will be O gauge and not O scale (two-rail) simply because I know I'll never have the space available to do what I would consider a credible job of modeling in two-rail O scale--at least not to the extent I would want.

In the case of O gauge, the track will have that all-telling middle rail, of course, and I'm not particularly concerned about how true-to-scale the trains themselves might be. I do, however, enjoy building realistic scenery, ballasting and weathering track, constructing credible structures, and adding the type of details that give any model railroad a reason for being--some purpose and unified theme--with enough visual interest and diversity so the trains themselves are not the dominant, or only, focal point.

That may not be pure Hi-Rail, depending on the definition one wishes to follow, but it's probably pretty darn close, and it's certainly enough to satisfy me. After all, it is MY hobby, and I'll pursue it, just as I always have, with my own relaxation and satisfaction foremost in mind. I don't care what others call it, and I don't care if it fails to meet some standard, either real or artificial. I only care that the hobby continues to provide a pleasant, enjoyable, and instructive leisure pastime for me.

And I think it's pretty obvious how and why O gauge Hi-Rail evolved. Most folks in three-rail O gauge started with what they had: three-rail O gauge. But they didn't let that limit them (if "limit" is even the correct term) to going and growing beyond the traditional way of enjoying toy trains, striving instead for something that approaches what one sees with many finely-crafted scale model railroads. The result has been some pretty darn incredible Hi-Rail layouts, where even that third rail seems to disappear amidst a convincing example of craftsmanship that captures and holds a viewer's attention.

I guess that anyone who really wants to know how Hi-Rail is defined for this segment of the hobby would be well advised to visit the web site devoted to that type of modeling. There, you'll find folks like Joe Lesser and others demonstrating, through example, what the definition is and how it is applied. I don't have the URL here with me, but will post it later unless someone beats me to it.

[Anonymous]

I think of Hi-rail as 3 rail trains that are in a realistic setting. The scale sized engines in 3 rail are almost the same as 2 rail trains from manufacturers such as 3rd Rail, MTH, Atlas and Weaver. The prices are the same or close for both 2 and 3 rail as far as I've seen. The 2 rail trains need wider radius track. The 3 rail trains have larger flanges. Some of the wheels have no flanges so that the engines can take tight curves
Bill