Track Power

[cheech]

Another New-bee. Any help will be greatly appreciated.

the layout is complex, O-27 gauge. A large C with broad legs.... one leg is 16 feet long and 5 feet wide; the 2nd leg is 24 feet long and 6 feet wide; the base is 12 feet long and 4 feet wide. I hope this makes sense.

Ross/Gargraves and Lionel switches, crossovers throughout. two levels in a large part and three in a mountain area. Four lines, one general freight, one special freight and two passengers. Over time i'll send pictures and describe the layout

lots of questions, but the first real one is "Power to the tracks". I have a ZW, from my childhood in the 50's. I'll get other power equipment as needed to run the loco's......but wiring......

My idea was to run four wires (a wire for each line) around the entire table, using suitcase connectors run a feed to a lockon on each track line about every 6-8 feet. is that a practical approach? Are there others.

there are switch overs and crossovers throughout, does phasing the transformers become an issue?

My second idea was to use Accessor controllers and power the accessories directly, not from the tracks. there are a lot.... Is that a practical approach?

My third idea is to use switch controllers to power the switches (probably about 26 of the babies incuding some wye, four way) except for the modern lionel - i don't want to get embroiled in the wire cutting to make that happen just now, i'd prefer to wait on that as there are only three of them. The older lionel have the direct power and should be easy to use with switch controllers.

Can someone offer advice...feedback of all types will be welcome.

[8]

[Roger Bielen]

Hi Cheech, welcome to the forum. I'll get the ball rolling and try to answer a couple of your questions. As to your running four wires, i.e. buses-see Dec. CTT, and tapping in with suitcase connectors that works fine. That's how I did it. As the CTT article mentions, use 12ga. wire for the bus, I used 16ga for the taps. For Gargraves track you can use spade connectors and pu***hem into the underside of the rails.

If you intend to use DCS (MTH's control system) in the future there is another wiring scheme that works best, those using DCS can elaborate.

If you use more than one transformer they must be phased. Also with interconnected, but sepatate loops you will need to use insulated pins between the loops to avoid powering one from the other.

For the accessories I have two extra transformers. These are also phased with my track power transformers just in case. I run a common "U" (ground) for all.

I also used Ross Switches with DZ-1000 operators powered off a separate feed, I think at 16V, and have no problems except when I forget to throw a switch.[#oops] With the DZ operators I opened one of there push button sets and duplicated it on my control board using momentary momentary dbl. throw switches and LED's rather than their housing.

Hope this gets you started. Have fun.

[BR60103]

If you use the ZW for 4 sections you shouldn't have any phasing problems with the track, as long as you wire the ZW consistently. If you put in a 5th section and another transformer for that, phase will be important.
Use separate transformers for the accessories if you have them. The only exceptions might be those linked to train operation -- crossing gates and such -- operated by insulated rails or contacts. Even those could probably be wired independantly.
Get your ZW checked by someone knowledgeable. The power cord is vulnerable to aging of the insulation. At the age of 50, it's as creaky as some of us.

[lionelsoni]

Having the transformers in phase is necessary only if you're going to run a train from a block powered by one transformer into a block powered by the other. Lots of folks do this; but I perennially rant against it. The problem is that, unless the transformers are set to exactly the same voltage, there will be a fault current flowing through the locomotive pickups between the blocks. If you are using a Lionel multiple-control transformer (like a ZW), there is no circuit-breaker protection in this case.

A better arrangement is to use a single-pole-double-throw-center-off switch for each block to select which transformer or control, if either, is to power the block. (Or, for more than two controls, a rotary switch or even multiple toggle switches.) Then keep each train connected to the same transformer as it moves around the layout. Nevertheless, it is a good idea to have the transformers in phase, since sooner or later you will make a mistake and cross between transformers. Having them in phase at least minimizes the arcing.

There is not much point in having the accessory voltage in phase with the track voltage, although there is no harm in it. In fact, the two voltages do not even need to be at the same frequency, for example, switch machines powered from DC. The only situation I can think of where it could make a difference is where all the locomotive wheels come off the grounded rail simultaneously but the locomotive maintains contact with the center rail and the control rail. Then the locomotive and accessory are in series across the sum of the track and accessory voltages, which probably means higher voltage for the accessory, at least until the wheels come back down.

Some modern "transformers" are not really. They synthesize their output voltage by various techniques, which do not necessarily produce voltage waveforms that can be connected together in any phase relationship. This is another reason to stick with reliable earlier transformers.

If you think you're ever going to want more blocks, it's a good idea to insulate them now, because it can mean a lot of track removal to do it later. You can always jumper around the gaps.

[Anonymous]

I have a similar L shaped layout. What I did was go to Home Depot and bought 12 gauge regular house wire and some ground extenders used in electrical service breaker boxes. These have a bunch of holes for connecting wires with screw terminals and can easily be mounted to the benchwork. You may buy the wire as 12-2 or 12-3 conductor depending on how many independant loops are on your layout. Run the wire along the layout perimeter in 12 to 16 foot sections connecting each wire with its own connector block making a complete circle.

Use the bare wire for the ground bus and the black,white and maybe red for the center rail hots on the independant loops. If you have a lot of independant loops you may have to use 2 or more wires for the ground bus. 12 Gauge wire will carry 20 amps. What you have now is a basic bus circuit with very little resistance or voltage drop. You can make your transformer connections to any terminal block.

Connect 16 gauge feeders from the terminal strips to the track at the desired intervals. I always solder directly to the track but you may use clips. Keep all your grounds to one outside rail.

Divide the other outside rail into useful sections with insulating pins.Connect each of these sections with 18-22 gauge stranded wire and run them to a barrier strip. Radio Shack sells no solder European style that work well with 4,8,and 12 terminals.

Now for example lets say the layout has 20 insulated rail sections. We now dedicate an unused tap of a ZW for relays. You may use 12 or 24 volt DC or 24 VAC relays. If you use DC relays you will need a bridge rectifier for each one. Connect the unused tap of the ZW to one lead of each relay (coil) you use. Connect the other lead to any insulated rail on the barrier strip. When a train or car run over that section the metal wheels connect the rail ground to the insulated rail completing the circuit and energizing the relay coil. You can now use the relay contacts to activate an accessory with a seperate transformer. The supplies are isolated electrically so you need not worry about phasing.

This system is very flexible in that if you modify your layout later you can easily wire an accessory adding an appropriate relay. Say you want to hook up a crossing flasher by insulated rail #6. You run a relay one lead to the ZW hot and the other wire to IR6. Hook the accessory transformer taps through the relay contacts to the flasher and you are done. Whenever a car occupies IR6 the flasher will be on. This system will not work if you plan on using DCS as twisted paired wiring is recommended.

Dale Hz

[cheech]

TO:Dale Hz,
Bob Nelson,
David,
Roger B.

THANKS VERY MUCH FOR YOUR USEFUL INFO.....I'LL DIGEST THEM OVER THE NEXT DAYS, BUT YOUR COMMENTS SEEM NICE AND CLEAR TO ME, NOW ANYWAY.

I AM ABOUT TO BEGIN TO "HAVE FUN"....I'LL LET YOU KNOW HOW I PROGRESS OVER THE COMING WEEKS...

[cheech]

can someone clarify why 16 ft sections might be needed. why wouldn't i just run a 100 ft section around the perimeter? that understood, i'm about to embark on installation

[Anonymous]

The 16 foot sections are just convienient connection points for connectin the 12 gauge solid wire to the 16 gauge stranded track wire. You can make these longer or shorter depending on the layout for convienient hookup. The 12 gauge buss has very little voltage drop so you get an even distributon of power. It is also flexible. If you want a block system for example isoate appropriate sections and run the to the closest connection point. Later if you want to use the block simply disconnect it run it through a relay or switch and back to the connection block.

[cheech]

thanks again dale....i didn't think of the difficulty of connecting two different wire guages.
appreciate your help VERY much
ralph