Going TMCC/DCS! A few quick questions.

[92hatchattack]

Just a few clarifying questions i need to know, cause i think this year i may be ready to shell out a few extra bucks when i get my new loco to actualy go with a comand system.

If i go with the lionel starter pack is there anything else i need to get to get up and running??? Does it come with the power cables to the track, and do i need to buy a special piece of track to connect it???

Can i power the TMCC with just an old school 1033 transformer for a small 5x6 layout for now.(single loop). I think i have a newer version lionel 135watt powerhouse from another transformer i used to have, but i have to try and locate it. I think that has the plug that will just plug directly into the TMCC unit.

Is now the right time to go TMCC? Are they going to be coming out with an updated version any time soon, and would it be worth waiting????

If i start out with the TMCC unit, and then i want to go with DCS to run MTH locos as well, id have to buy the whole DCS system, and let the DCS remote cab take over for the CAB1 in order to be able to run both types of locos in command, correct? ( I wont be able to run mth locos in command with the cab1 right?)

Ok, thats it for now, but im sure a few more questions will arise after i get all this straightened out in my mind!!!

Oh, yeah, its going to be a Merry Christmas for me this year!!!!

[ChiefEagles]

I went with DCS and then added the TMCC Command Module [with cable]. I run my TMCC with CAB1 and PS2's and new conventional with DCS remote. You can run all with the DCS remote. Older postwars seem to run better with just the transformer controling voltage. If you get a Command Module [comes with a small power transformer for the module] and a CAB1, you can run TMCC as all you do is hook a wire to the track's common [outside] rail. Depending on the number of engines, will determine the size of the transformer.

[92hatchattack]

Are you saying i can hook up the two units(tmcc and dcs) and use both controllers at the same time??? Is there any special blocking that needs to be done to do this???

[spankybird]

If you start with TMCC first, then the command base and Cab1 controller will control any TMCC engine in command mode only. Now if you wi***o run conventional engines and MTH engines, and you are planning on adding DCS, do it now and save money. If you add the Lionel powermaster or TCP units, DCS already does it and you will be spending the money twice.

[ChiefEagles]

92, TMCC and DCS communicate to engines in two different ways. I have run them both on the same track but if it is a short loop, can get to be "fun". Kind of like hopping on one foot, rubbing your head and chewing gum at the same time. Big layout or very slow operation is better. The DCS remote will communicate with both TMCC [through the TIU and cable to Command Module] and DCS. The CAB1 will only communicate with TMCC.

[92hatchattack]

^^^ So what you are saying is that after i get the basic TMCC, that u shouldnt bother getting the lionel extras to run in conventional and whatnot, instead, skip that and add the DCS system instead???

I probaly wont own an MTH unit for another year or so, so thats why i want to start off with the TMCC, cause i think im buying an Atlas gp60 in a month ...

[nblum]

"If i go with the lionel starter pack is there anything else i need to get to get up and running???"

No, just the cab-1 and command base.

"Does it come with the power cables to the track, and do i need to buy a special piece of track to connect it???"

One wire of any size between the command base and an outer rail of the track is all that is needed. No special track, any lockon and wire you already have will be fine.

"Can i power the TMCC with just an old school 1033 transformer for a small 5x6 layout for now.(single loop). I think i have a newer version lionel 135watt powerhouse from another transformer i used to have, but i have to try and locate it. I think that has the plug that will just plug directly into the TMCC unit."

Should be fine for a single locomotive or two. The Powerhouse plugs into either a TMCC (Command) Lockon which is a sophisticated circuit breaker/lockon when you are only going to be operating command locos, or the Powerhouse also plugs into a Powermaster or TPC300/400 which allows you much superior control of conventional locos using the cab-1. This is quite a bit better conventional speed control than almost any transformer made, and is superior to the variable outputs of the TIU, which have too high a starting voltage for some conventional locos. If you are going to use older conventional locos, nothing will give you better control of their speed than a Powermaster or TPC 300/400. If you don't have any conventional locos or plan to convert them all to command, then you don't need these. The advantage of having a Powermaster or TPC 300/400 for even command control is you can dial the voltage down to 16-18 volts so you don't put more power on the track than you need. For example, you may not want your passenger or caboose lighting to have 20 volts applied to the track at all times if they have 14 volt bulbs in them.

"Is now the right time to go TMCC? Are they going to be coming out with an updated version any time soon, and would it be worth waiting????"

There have been persistent promises of an announcement for some months now, but nothing concrete. The new system is apparently designed but still not in production. Nothing will appear before 2006 and I wouldn't be surprised if it was 2007. If you're not in a hurry, I'd consider waiting, but the current version of TMCC does everything one really wants a command system to do: remote control of speed, direction, sounds, couplers, and allows multiple locomotives on one track with no need for fancy wiring or blocks on one's layout.

"If i start out with the TMCC unit, and then i want to go with DCS to run MTH locos as well, id have to buy the whole DCS system, and let the DCS remote cab take over for the CAB1 in order to be able to run both types of locos in command, correct? ( I wont be able to run mth locos in command with the cab1 right?)"

Yes, if you want to operate MTH locos made since about 2000 with PS2 electronics in command mode, you will need the DCS system (handheld plus TIU). There is no requirement to use the DCS handheld for TMCC locos, as the two systems work independently, and usually do not interfere with each other's functions. You will not be able to operate MTH PS2 locos in command mode with the cab-1, but can use the DCS handheld to control basic TMCC locos functions in command mode if you purchase a cable to connect the DCS TIU to the TMCC command base.

My own opinion is starting with TMCC is simpler as the system is simpler and less subject to quirks. Not to mention about 1/2 to 1/3 the initial cost. If you already have multiple MTH PS2 locos, going with DCS initially would make sense.



"Oh, yeah, its going to be a Merry Christmas for me this year!!!!"

May it be so. Have fun.

[92hatchattack]

Cheif, i dont think ill be opperating two individual locos on the same track, but it would be nice to be able to use the two diffrent controllers. I could run one, and when my son is old enough he could use the other. That would be nice to have a choice which one you want to play with though, loco permiting of course.

Thanks for all the help guys! Keep it comming! ... I love this forum!

[ChiefEagles]

92, you can do that with two CAB1's if they are TMCC or conventional and/or two DCS remotes. Some folks are " predigest" to one system and manufacturer. Depends on what YOU want. As to quirks on DCS, never seen them. TMCC has quirks too but haven't seen them too. I run [and own] more Lionel TMCC engines [quite a few] than MTH PS2's and PS1's. I'm glad I went with DCS TIU and added Lionel Command Module and CAB1 [which I didn't really have to have and I purchased later]. I do think the CAB1 operates TMCC better than the DCS remote. Now you are really confused. [:)]

[spankybird]

Here are some cost facts to consider:

What has been stated is correct if you wi***o operate TMCC command only. If you with to also run MTH PS1 or PS2 engines then you have to add more to the Command base. IF you also wi***o run conventional as well as TMCC then again more is need to be added.

If you have DCS and wi***o run MTH PS1 or PS2 or any other engine in Conventional mode then DCS (TIU plus remote) is all that you need. In a small to medium size layout, just taking the wires from the transfer to the track and adding the TIU between the transformer and the track is all that is need.

If you wi***o run both MTH PS2 and TMCC in command mode, then you need the DCS and add the TMCC command base to it. This will also allow you to run any engine, either in command or conventional mode.

Here is come cost comparisons.

The entree cost of $100.00 will only allow you to operate your TMCC engines with the Cab 1.

The other cost you may end up spending is:

Power Master (to run convention engines from your Cab 1 = $66.00

TPC (300) (to operate PS2 engines in Conventional mode only) = $94.00

Action recorder (Make recordings of your favorite layout scenarios and play them over
and over again. Record layout scenarios using your trains and
accessories) = $62.00

You should also have a surge protector (Scott’s Odd-n-ends) to protect all your electronics = $50.00 (approx. – depending on which one you buy)

Total cost is now = $372.00

DCS does cost more but has all of the above built into it. = $270.00

IF you add a TMCCcommand base (to also control TMCC engines) = $45.00
Cable to connect TMCC command base = $20.00
Total = $335.00

You will spend the about the same amount. The one advantage with DCS, it will run both MTH and TMCC engines in Command.

The prices are based from:

http://www.hobbystation.net/tmcc.html

[92hatchattack]

Not all that confused cheif....And no, im really not predigest to any one manufacturer. I will always buy the loco that i feel is better that the other, regardless of brand.

Now i have to find that old powerhouse i had so you guys can tell me if its compatable. I dont know exactly what kind it was, but it was like an individual unit. a big rectangle that plugged into the wall, and then another wire ran to the controler. Ill find it and let ya know, cause that would cut down the cost of getting started, then i could jump into TMCC for only about $140 or so right?

[92hatchattack]

ok, if i get a tmcc with the cab 1 now, and then get a full DCS system in the future, and i want to be able to use both the cab1, and the dcs remote controller, do u still link the systems together???? And at that point i can use either the DCS remote to operatere both TMCC and DCS , or i can use the DCS conrtoller to run DCS locos AND use the the CAB1 to run TMCC locos simutaniously??? am i now understanding???

[nblum]

You're understanding fine. No need to link the systems unless you want to use only the DCS handheld to control TMCC.

You really do need the cab-1 by the way, to fully utilize the features of the TMCC system, similarly to how you need DCS to fully utilize the features of the PS2 system. MTH did not fully implement the TMCC system in DCS, as yet. Features such as reprogramming locomotives, which is occasionally necessary, setting stall speed and momentum for locomotives, making TMCC locomotive lashups requires the cab-1 and cannot be performed from the DCS handheld which does handle the TMCC basics, such as speed, direction, couplers, most but not all Railsounds functions, and resetting locomotive ID numbers.

[ChiefEagles]

92, you are on the right track. Not talking about you being predgist to one manufacturer but some folks will post that way. To run both systems from DCS remote [which can be convienet] you get a cable and run some wires. You can run them with both controllers at the same time. The TMCC will not run MTH PS2's in command. The DCS controller will run all engines. as I said, I like to run TMCC with CAB1 and MTH with DCS controller [just my preference]. Yes, I have run them on the same loop at the same time with one running on CAB1 and the other on DCS remote.

[92hatchattack]

^^^ good info ...

ok ... taking a step back.... with the cab 1 and TMCC command base, i need to add a power suply right????? I dont think it comes with one.

I just pulled out something out of my closet. Says its a PH-1 Powerhouse... the conector looks like this:
^
||
|| ok, thats not a very good picture, but i think u get the pont .. its a rectandle shaped plug with one end that goes into a point..... will this connect into the comand base to power it???

[92hatchattack]

the connecter on the powerhouse i have looks just like this one, so im guessing it will work then .. i think its 135watts.... should be enough to power 2 locos on a short track i guess...

[92hatchattack]

FOUND IT!

"The 135-Watt PowerHouse Power Supply is ready for duty on your layout. Featuring an on/off switch for added safety, this powerful transformer is designed for use with the TMCC Track Power Controller, Direct Lockon, or PowerMaster."


looks exactly like what i have! Hard to believe being that i bought this thing, must have been like 8 or so years ago!

[92hatchattack]

ok, i found this.... apears to be the proper way of connection a powerhouse to the track withought the use of a powermaster.


TMCC Direct Lock-on
Connect your PowerHouse Power Supply directly to the track with the TMCC Direct Lockon. Featuring a selectable current setting (for the 135-Watt or 180-Watt PowerHouses), the Direct Lockon eliminates the need for a PowerMaster if you run only TMCC-equipped locomotives. For added safety, the Direct Lockon provides over-current protection and an automatic reset.

[nblum]

You're right on track here. The command base has its own "wall-wart" power supply that comes with it. The beauty of the TMCC system is that it is completely independent of the layout power. It just applies a radio frequency signal to the outside rail. So yes, you need to power the layout for the trains separately. But if you have a small layout, this means you can do command control with literally two total wires, no blocks or other modifications. One wire cord from the power source, in your case a Powerhouse, hooked up to a TMCC Lockon and one wire of any gauge from the command base to any point on one of the outside rails. The only thing that can get tricky about TMCC installations is that the command base needs ideally to be plugged into a grounded outlet, something not present in older homes not up to present electrical codes. For a small layout as you describe, this may not matter, but it's worth keeping in mind.

The disadvantage of the Powerhouse/TMCC Lockon arrangement, while inexpensive and simple, is that it cannot be used as described above to control conventional or PS2 command locos. For that you need a separate transformer with variable voltage, or for cab-1 remote control, a Powermaster or TPC 300 or TPC 400. The setup you are planning is simple, cheap and the most glitch free system, with the best circuit breaker protection available, but it will not, as is. meet your needs if you want to control non-command locos or PS2 locos in command (DCS) mode. For that you'll need a Powermaster/TPC for the conventional locos or a DCS system for the PS2. While the DCS system will control conventional locos well in most cases, its conventional control capabilities are not quite as well developed (except for PS2 locos) as the Powermaster/TPC equipment. Largely a judgement call. If you're going to primarily be using TMCC locos and conventional locos, I'd consider the TPCs/Powermaster, if it's going to be primarily PS2 and conventional, I'd go directly to the DCS system. In the end to control locos in command mode, you'll need TMCC for the TMCC and DCS for the PS2. Some people like the DCS remote better, some like the cab-1 better, usually reflecting which one they got used to first :).

[92hatchattack]

cool thanks!.... Like i stated before, ill probaly end up owning both systems... but since im getting a TMCC loco first, thats what i am going to start off with.

[tmcc man]

tmcc is a great system. I do agree with spankybird though, because DCS has a lot more packed in. I have the tmcc system already, and was thinking of adding the DCS system this year, and possibly a PS2 engine. I did buy the tpc 400, and a couple days later the engine board in my PS2 engine went. i still use the tpc, and i only have 2 command engines, they are both Lionel C420s. I am probably going to purchase if not dcs an Atlas GP9 . If i was to buy dcs, i would add the railking reading RS3. I also have the Lionel Chessie Diesel Freight on my list.

[Anonymous]

The bottom line is TMCC runs engines in command mode from Lionel, K-Line, Atlas, 3rd Rail, Weaver, and anything else you want to put a $65-$90 upgrade board into. Buy it first. With a DCS system only you can only run MTH (in command mode). Then you go buy the TMCC set up and DCS can run the engines from the other mfgs by talking to the TMCC.

Saying DCS can run anything is like saying "Oh, sure you can drive our car to Kalamzoo - Oh wait, you want to go to Ann Arbor, Flint, New Buffalo, and Detroit? Well, you need another car to tow it to those other places. But our car is the best, 'cause it's the only one that can get to Kalamazoo."[:)]

Just kidding. I laugh because I love.[8D]

[spankybird]

Or you could say that buying TMCC to run in Command mode only, then you wi***o also run convetional and also PS1 and also PS2 is like buying a car and then finding out the enigne is extra, the tires are extra and so is the steering wheel.[B)]

Just kiddiing [;)] [(-D] [(-D] [(-D]

[Anonymous]

Mine was funnier. [8D]

[spankybird]

That it is, and both are saddly true [;)]

[winrose46]

Just one person's opinion. I started with TMCC and Lionel and Kline engines and then added DCS. I currently have 12 DCS engines and 11 TMCC engines. I am in the process of having the Kline Hudson (NYC) converted from TMCC to DCS because it did not have cruise control and I am converting the Kline TMCC Light Pacific (B&O) from TMCC cruise control to Proto 2. The big factor in the B&O change is that the electronics overheat and stop the engine and Kline support did not reply to my email. With their chapter 11, I am not willing to send the engine back to them without a reply. TMCC and DCS co-exist very well on my layout once I got the CTT tip of using a water pipe ground wire between layers of track (12 gage 6 inches apart worked for me). Without it the TMCC stops when it is under other TMCC track. Their idea is if the signal is lost the engine should stop. For my purposes, the DCS is better because I run multiple trains on multiple loops. While all the trains can be controlled on the DCS controller, the speed steps are linear on DCS and the TMCC speed steps are not linear. Also, with the DCS, I can see what speed (relative) I have set the TMCC engine to and make single unit changes to keep a train from catching up to the one in front (instead of spining the red button). On my layout (7 by 17) and 3 levels with a cheating 4th (very small o27 loop) I run 14 trains simultaneously (16 engines). I have had as many as 6 TMCC engines in that configuration; however, because of the greater speed control, the TMCC engines are being phased out. I was interested in the DCS commands that someone posted for the Lionel crane car because Mike (of MTH) told me that DCS could not control the crane because Lionel did not publish its code (my question to mike was specific to the gantry). Additionally, I have found some anomalies regarding the DCS controller. In lashup mode, the read and all engines does not work because the read catches the individual engine ids and not the lashup. Additionally, the DCS read command does not ID the TMCC engines on the track. Additionally, the sound off button does not work for TMCC engines and volume down must be used. One area on a DCS engine and the handheld is that if you are not in super TIU mode and you utilize multiple TIU's moving the train from one TIU to the other causes the handheld not to control the engine. I started out in super TIU mode and currently I am not in that mode and have to switch back. I am hesitant because I do not want to lose all my DCS settings and MTH will be coming out (someday according to mike) with a way to download to a PC and to up load to hand helds.

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by winrose46

I am in the process of having the Kline Hudson (NYC) converted from TMCC to DCS because it did not have cruise control and I am converting the Kline TMCC Light Pacific (B&O) from TMCC cruise control to Proto 2.

Really? I didn't think there were PS2 conversions available for all the different MTH PS1 engines, let alone K-Line engines. That would be big news, if it were true. I mean, a talented person could probably hack a $180 PS2.0 kit to fit something other than the enigine for which it was intended, but I can't Imagine that MTH would be particularly happy about it. I guess the person converting the engine would download a soundset for an MTH engine and install it? The gear ratio would have to be correct or the scale MPH would be off. Does your DCS remote say "K-Line Hudson" or "Unknown PS 2 engine"?

Or are you pulling our leg? (It's OK, it wouldn't be the first time.)[;)]

Old 2037

[winrose46]

No I am not kidding. Engine house hobbies of Gaithersburg MD has been doing quite a bit of PS2 upgrades and when he completes my Kline Hudson it will be his second. He took apart the Lt. Pacific and said he had enough room to install the PS2 kit in that one also. If the Lt Pacific electonics did not over heat, I would not have submitted that engine for the conversion because the cruise control works real well; however, I can not have an engine unexpectly stop on a multi train loop (I like the detail of the engine and with Kline's chapter 11, my only recourse is PS2 for cruise control). When I feel like a challenge I run my post war lionel (2332, 736, 681, and 623) using the Z400 remote to effect track voltage and the DCS controller to control the command engine on that loop. I add cars to the conventional engine to have a decent controlled speed at 15 volts (The TMCC and DCS engines will run ok at that voltage).

TMCC and DCS work well together and the only reason I am converting to DCS is that I prefer that system when running two and three trains (8 to 10 cars each for three or 18 cars when I run only 2 trains) on a 17 foot loop. If I were only running one train per loop I would not care about which control system I was using. However, this is from someone who took over the living room for 2 months at Christmas and ran four conventional trains on two loops with dual ZWs controlling each quadrant of each loop. TMCC and DCS is a lot easier, less hectic and more fun.

[winrose46]

regarding the post "Are you saying i can hook up the two units(tmcc and dcs) and use both controllers at the same time??? Is there any special blocking that needs to be done to do this???" you can start up TMCC engines with DCs or TMCC and while controlling with DCS use the CAB 1 to change the speed etc. I use this to get around the 31 smph on DCS when if I forget to reset the engine to 0 before starting or if 31 smph is too slow. I use the CAB1 to increase speed after dialing down the DCS remote. I then use the DCS to fine control the speed.