Just when you thought it (K-Line/Lionel suit) was over, the fat lady has started singing!

[brianel027]

So we'll see how the agreement plays out over time. As they say "It ain't over until the fat lady sings." - quote from yours truly on the K-Line, Lionel settlement thread

Well kids, just when you thought the "Prairie Wind" had settled, that things might calm down... a lone voice cuts through the still of the uneasy silence. And that voice is over on the CoilCouplers web site... let's tune in shall we? Granted, the CoilCouplers site is hardly CNN, but since news media like to lead a story with a teaser, here's the teaser followed by the link to the whole story.
- - - - -
As a result of K-Line's misleading press release, posted on the OGR Three Rail Mainline, the defendants and plaintiff have been ordered back to the court on this coming Monday. It is CCA's opinion that that is not a good sign for K-Line. Stay tuned.
- - - - -
http://www.coilcouplers.com/hirail/hirail00.shtml

[Anonymous]

Sitting on the outside looking in, ya just gotta love this stuff! The mystery, the intrigue, the blunders heaped upon blunders, and the real life examples of foot-in-mouth disease. A continuous soap opera, at best, and a comedy of errors, at worst.

Usually, when a settlement in a lawsuit is reached, BOTH parties are restricted in what they can reveal about the terms of the settlement. In fact, in many or most cases, the terms of the settlement are permanently sealed, and both parties are enjoined from releasing much specific information, aside from a terse announcement of the settlement being reached and their desire to move on and serve their loyal customers and . . . blah, blah, blah.

But in their haste to paint the best face possible on this most recent little tiff between toy train manufacturers, both parties likely stepped over the line in their press releases and said more than they were supposed to say, or were allowed to say by the court. BOTH releases are full of puffery and bravado, and both were probably prepared in too much haste. So now it's all coming back--if the report from Clyde Coil is to be believed--to bite one or both of them in their respective butts.

I have no reason to doubt that Clyde Coil is well-connected with Lionel LLC, so it's quite likely that something is going on here. Just exactly what that "something" is could (and probably will) be a matter of endless conjecture, but my advice would be to just sit back and enjoy the show. After all, we're all just spectators in this production and, thankfully, not included in the cast of characters.

[3railguy]

I saw that. I saw the K-Line press release too. They claim Pierson was working for K-Line. But using Lionel's hardrive? Yea right.

[brianel027]

Things are normally pretty quiet in the little town of Greendale, especially on a Sunday. Folks head to church... everyone knows everyone so there are no surprises. But over at the Coil Couplers site, things are not as quiet as usual for a Sunday.

On top of the story referenced above by D. Railer, Clyde Coil now has written a piece. Not sure what it will all mean in the end, but one thing is certain... all the comments here about how happy everyone was that the Lionel / K-Line suit was settled quickly apparently may be very short lived.

http://www.coilcouplers.com/hirail/hirail00.shtml

[trigtrax]

They claim Pierson was working for K-Line. But using Lionel's hardrive? Yea right.

Actually one version of the story is Pierson was only a part time Lionel employee and the computers were part of his "compensation package". A settlemnent of up to 700K legal fees and 5% of K-line sales of disputed merchandise was cheaper than a prolonged court battle.

[Anonymous]

There is an update on the Clyde Coil site, wherein Clyde presents the full text of the court's ruling. Some folks may find it helpful in seeing beyond the spin of both previous press releases.

[trigtrax]

Some folks may find it helpful in seeing beyond the spin of both previous press releases.

Yeah, but some folks might find it more helpful if Lionel stopped claiming what leadership they have and started putting the stuff in the product. So far all they've given people is a lotta hype and an on/off switch for their flakey speed control.

[nblum]

Odyssey speed control works fine. It's not as finely tuned as MTH's PS2 speed control, and it was a pain in the neck to operate in conventional mode, which is why it needs the on-off switch. For those operating in command, it's quite adequate. And as far as leadership TMCC is still a much easier to install, use and trouble shoot system with greater reliability than anyone else's system, and was around for six years before their competitor introduced anything. Anyhow it's a little disingenuous for those who do not use speed control or command control to scold a company about the rate of technologic innovation. And it's disingenuous for those who are not Lionel customers to complain about anything Lionel makes or doesn't make.

What I object to is Lionel emulating the MTH business model of resorting to litigation for everything, particularly for dealing with issues of market share and innovation. They may have had some cause here, but this business model is disastrous in a small cottage industry, IMO. MTH is the pioneer and the paragon in this business model, and this crazy industry wide model of fratricidal litigiousness and legal threats has got to stop if the industry is going to survive. That's one reason the K-Line and Lionel settlement required them to promise to try to settle things without going to court in the future.

[MartyE]

QUOTE: Odyssey speed control works fine. It's not as finely tuned as MTH's PS2 speed control, and it was a pain in the neck to operate in conventional mode, which is why it needs the on-off switch. For those operating in command, it's quite adequate.

I have to disagree with this statement. It is not adequate. Speed between various engines can vary greatly. Aboslute speed is non existant. I like Lionel but the Odyssey system needs a major upgrade.

[garyseven]

"And it's disingenuous for those who are not Lionel customers to complain about anything Lionel makes or doesn't make."
However, it is not disingenuous to state that a sewer stinks without ever smelling one.[;)]

[nblum]

"However, it is not disingenuous to state that a sewer stinks without ever smelling one"

On the other hand, it is disingenuous, if not plain old dishonest to state that a sewer stinks when Lionel makes it, but it smells as sweet as Chanel No. 5 when someone else makes it ;).

[Bob Keller]

Just let me inject here that people should try to avoid making statements that other might take personally.

[trigtrax]

Who cares about stinky sewers, Lionel is claiming they own all these improvements but they ain't putting it in their trains... You say it's yours, you say it's great... Show me.. Tell me where I can buy one... A lotta Claims but no Trains

[nblum]

Lionel now owns these improvements, but they only recently acquired them through legal action. These improvements, in particular the speed control, were developed for K-Line by Bob Grubba and Marty Pierson. Assuming Lionel has access to this improvement, which isn't clear, and assuming they choose to implement it, it would take some time to integrate the K-Line technology into Lionel products.

In many industries, including this one, rushing things into production has led to less than optimal results.

[garyseven]

" a sewer stinks when Lionel makes it, but it smells as sweet as Chanel No. 5 when someone else makes it"

Neil - Don't take this personally, but, you are correct![:)]

[nblum]

Believe it or not, sewer or not, this case is over, thank goodness. Maybe these guys can go back to making products instead of lawsuits.

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: And it's disingenuous for those who are not Lionel customers to complain about anything Lionel makes or doesn't make.

I suppose this doesn't really apply to me. I was a former Lionel customer before I even knew of the existence of MTH, and I thought K-Line made smoke tablets. The reason I was a former customer was the appalling lack of quality control and the infuriating attitude toward dissatisfied customers. After I got back into the hobby courtesy of Mike, I went back and refurbished all the junk that Lionel sold me during their arrogant years; believe it or not, it works pretty well. I made some changes, and I repaired things that were assembled wrong. I would have a great deal different attitude toward Lionel if their quality control had taken care of these issues before they sold me this junk at premium prices. Who knows, if they fix their marketing paradigm like it looks like they intend to, in another forty or fifty years I may start buying Lionel again.

[nblum]

Doug, fair enough. But it would be bizarre if someone with your buying habits was ranting and raving about Lionel not introducing second generation speed control, wouldn't it?

So my comments really aren't directed to those like you who don't buy Lionel because they like something else better or don't buy Lionel for some other reason, but who also don't rant and rave about Lionel.

:):)

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: But it would be bizarre if someone with your buying habits was ranting and raving about Lionel not introducing second generation speed control, wouldn't it?

Would you like to hear me rant about MTH not supporting first generation speed control? <really wide evil grin> I have a DRG 4-6-2 Pacific Steamer that I bought without PS1 on the assurance from the hobby shop that it was upgradable. Well, guess what? Not only is the upgrade kit not available, but the basic engine is not compatible with PS2. Don't bother to tell me how to fix it, I cursed for a while, visited a local hobby shop that just happened to have an overstock remainder (cheap) and bought another one, this one with PS1. Neither company fixed my problem, but the lady in customer service at MTH was sympathetic. Lionel pretty much told me to go blow. So I went.

Now, if you want to discuss why the PS1 upgrade was not available, I suppose the issue of trade secrets and litigation will come up. She (the lady in customer service) referred me to whoever it was that built the original board, and they were worse than Lionel. But I am told that they have an excuse. <yet another evil grin>

[brianel027]

"It's high time to get on with the fun of electric trains and tell the story behind TMCC2 development and rollout." - D.Railer from latest Hi-Rail Times story

When I posted this thread, I did find some humor in how many were heralding the K-Line press release that Lionel and K-Line would jointly share technology. I found this interesting as K-Line and Lionel weren't even remotely on the same page as far as their statements about the "settlement" went.

Within hours of the first Lionel settlement statement, Maury Klein was telling CTT that the Lionel statement was wrong. From my view, it is highly unlikely that 2 companies can get along on a product level, if they can't even agree on what they have agreed to.

What I do find somewhat ironic about all this is that aside from railroad logo licensing, all of the legal problems we've seen recently are all over high end, high tech elements of the hobby. Just as ironic that the digital and computer advancements have made the hobby more fun for some (and even helped prod some back into 3-rail trains), the same high tech advancements in trains have also divided the hobby as possibly never seen before.

As witnessed above, modelers can't even agree about the companies or which system is better. The technology has made the trains more expensive. Even major retailers such as Train Express say the hobby is financially out of reach for far too many. And the companies are battling each other in both retail and legal venues for dominancy in a shrinking demographic...
makes no sense to me. [banghead]

It's high time to get on with the fun of electric trains. I agree with this much of the above quote from D. Railer. I'm certain I have as much fun with my non-scale, non-digital control, heavily-altered, DC current controlled 027 trains. I have NEVER had to send one away for any repair. My control system is ingenious in its simplicity: place hand on transformer and turn dial! [8] Amazing... the trains run every time. No complaints*, no calls to the service department. Long live my non-scale K-Line S-2's, the greastest loco they ever made. Long live my Lionel MPC stuff... the last period where any respectable amount of new tooling was done for the non-scale side of the hobby.

*My only complaint all along (I've been very predictable and steadfast on these) is that the hobby is lopsided towards the expensive high end and the lack of modern roadnames of starter train product. There's been scant little new traditionally-sized product development while the catalogs are jammed full of ever increasing amounts of ever increasingly expensive trains.... geared to an audience that has become ever increasingly demanding in a market that has become saturated and the companies bitterly competitive, uncooperative and now add unscrupulous.

And after reading all the various statements on the CoilCouplers site, I would put very little hope into these 2 companies trusting each other enough to cooperate and share technology.

Nevermind CoilCouplers, we modelers can't even agree on what trains are best or what operating system works best. Hey, one man's junk (Lionel MPC, early K-Line stuff) is another man's treasure.... I like my treaures... ooops I meant trains.

And I thank God that while some in this World don't even have enough to eat, or a secure place to live, that I've been blessed enough (and I've never been financially well off by any measurement) to be able to participate in this enjoyable and sometimes foolish hobby of 3-rail trains. And everytime I hear the joyful exclaimations of some little kid seeing my trains for the first time, it all becomes very worthwhile.

[Anonymous]

I'm certain I have as much fun with my non-scale, non-digital control, heavily-altered, DC current controlled 027 trains. I have NEVER had to send one away for any repair. My control system is ingenious in its simplicity: place hand on transformer and turn dial! Amazing... the trains run every time. No complaints*, no calls to the service department. Long live my non-scale K-Line S-2's, the greastest loco they ever made. Long live my Lionel MPC stuff.

brianel027
Correct you are!! I have felt that way a very long time. It is nice not to be alone.

Do you remove the e-units in your S-2s?

david

[Anonymous]

Imagine yourself as an enthusiastic newcomer who is just exploring the diverse leisure pastime possibilities in model railroading. Then imagine that in the process of your "investigations," you come across the various boards and forums relating to three-rail O gauge model railroading.

You read threads about manufacturers suing other manufacturers; confusing threads about multiple control systems, both real and imagined; pricing that is all over the board (including blowouts); and threads from brand-loyal hobbyists who are constantly at each other's throats.

Most people who take up a hobby--any hobby--do so as a means of escaping, at least for a time, the turmoil that confronts them in their "real" lives. If what's happening in O gauge these days is not enough to convince a newcomer to explore some other area in the hobby, I don't know what would be.

[Jumijo]

I don't have to imagine it, Allan. I am a newcomer. The negativity and the turmoil associated with the lawsuits and the loyalties aren't pleasant, but they are part of the mix. I've learned a lot in the short time I've been visiting the online forums, but perhaps one of the greatest lessons I've learned is how to filter out some of this clutter and make decisions based on what really matters. Brand against brand isn't nearly enough to make me leave a hobby. Poor product across the board, on the other hand - that would be. But that isn't the case either. I was in a train store the other day and would have loved to go nuts with my credit card. Everywhere I looked, there were great things I wanted to purchase.

Lionel and K-Line each make great products. I hope both companies will be around for a long time to come.

Jim

[Anonymous]

Brianel-- I've got to ask. Did you call your K-Line S-2s the greatest or the greasiest?

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: dwstpot posted:
Do you remove the e-units in your S-2s?

There's an in joke in there somewhere that I don't understand. I had a Lionel 0-4-0 Switcher that seemed to come from the factory with Forward and three neutrals. I kept it around for about twenty years to remind me not to buy Lionel. About a year ago, I got energetic and disassembled and trouble shot it. Seems the power transistor that was supposed to control reverse did not have enough current capacity and had blown out the first time the electronic e-unit tried to put it in reverse. I replaced the power transistors with a matched pair that had about double the current capacity of the originals, and it has been working like a trojan ever since. You would think Lionel could have done that twenty years ago when I first called them. Or better yet, you would think they could spring for transistors with sufficient current capacity to handle the design load in the first place. Arrogant bunch.

[garyseven]

Allan. Well said, as always.

[Anonymous]

Allan, you should take your own advice. Your postings all relate to the "end of the hobby". How about being positive? There are alot of wonderful things about this hobby. If you can't be positive then you should consider yourself part of the problem.

[brianel027]

Funny Skyray... they're only the greasiest if I'm eating a burger while handling them. [:D]

Seriously, there's no joke in there. Yes David I do remove the circuit board e-units and find the performance of the locos is vastly improved on straight DC current. The locos run as if they were on speed control... very smooth even on tight 027 curves. The slow down on these curves is very dramatically reduced! The engines also run more quietly with far less "growl." K-Line has had the traction tires all over the place in no one set uniform manner. I remove all traction tires and then readhere them one at a time with 3M Carpet Tape. If one works, I leave it at that. Usually a total of two will do it. Having traction tires on opposites sides of the same identical motorized truck contributes to cause some of the growl noise, especially on tight curves under load.

I guess I stumbled into this removing the circuit board e-unit by accident. I talked to a couple of parts guys and was chatting about e-units. They recommended I try a Lionel one in place of the K-Line one, but I found this did not improve noise levels or operation. So I wired a loco without the board, and tried DC current - and was impressed enough to go with it.

I use off board sound, so there is no problem. I prefer the economics of off board sound. Plus the horns on many of the lower end locos from anyone leave a lot to be desired. I've made my own diesel horns which sound far better.

I run the layout on DC current now, and though there are minor drawbacks, the improvements make them worthwhile. One or two of my MPC locos tend to lurch a little because of the slower reaction of the mechanical e-unit. But I compensate for that by turning up the power slowly, giving the loco (e-unit) a chance to fully engage. I have enough blocks on my layout so running multiple units is still possible. And running engines together is a sinch.

I saw the K-Line S-2 is the greatest loco made (knowing full well it really isn't) because it is a basic, solid built non-scale loco that runs well for the money, has much potential to be improved, detailed and fixed up, and looks good on a smaller layout with smaller kinds of rolling stock. I add any combination of the following to my S-2's: extra handrails, custom headlights, marker lights, paint the molded steps, add front and back end plates (to fill coupler gap), paint the sheetmetal step and handrail ends, add engineer figures, paint other details (like visors over the cab windows).... you get the picture. I also use a cone drill bit to drill into the solid plastic snap-in decorative horn to make that look better, if I don't replace it with a better looking Lionel one (sometimes the ornamental bell too).

I can make this simple loco look like it is much more than it really is. None of the detailing I do is so fragile that it will break easily like many of today's locos.

The K-Line S-2 is a solid little loco that would make a superb choice for a child's first train engine. And has potential enough to be detailed more to please me. Too bad it isn't made anymore.

Of course, for years, the kind of stuff I do was frowned upon because I might be ruining the future value of a potentially collectible train. HOGWASH! Most of the trains made today are going to be worth a lot less than were even paid for them. The value is in the fun you have with them.... that's the BIG payback.

As far as more feature advanced scale size trains go, it's like I said above. It's neat they are available and some certainly like them. But the demanding train buying public coupled with the over-zealous competition between the companies is making the hobby seem more like a war than the fun it should be.

The trains I like and run have contributed zero to the current legal problems. But it isn't the trains themselves... it's the desire of the train companies to win sales (not from new customers but from each others customers) by surpassing the other companies in technology and making it non-compatible that has changed the hobby so much.... first as a blessing, but now as more of a curse.

Neil Young is "out of the program" when it comes to making records, preferring analog technology when the entire recording industry has gone digital.

So I am DANG proud as peaches to be the "Neil Young" of the train world, by being completely "out of the program" and running my trains the way it has been done for the past 85 years and has worked very very well.

As I've said before, if I had $1,000 to blow on a command equipped train engine, I'd really have $100 to buy that engine and $900 to give to the poor and needy. And I'm sure the good Lord would be happier with me if I just gave the whole grand to the poor. And with the lousy business ethics of some of the train companies, that thought is becomming more attractive.

[Anonymous]

I'm really interested about the wiring for DC current, as i have a few engines i don't want to upgrade to TMCC but would like ot run on a floor layout for fun. How do youdo it? is there a book aviable for it?
THanks BIll

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by Geno Phillipe

Allan, you should take your own advice. Your postings all relate to the "end of the hobby". How about being positive? There are alot of wonderful things about this hobby. If you can't be positive then you should consider yourself part of the problem.

Well, I suppose I could adopt a head-in-the-sand approach, but that's not my style. I believe the record will show that I offer praise, support, and encouragement where I feel it's appropriate, and I also can be critical when I feel that criticism is warranted. After all, isn't discussion and varying points of view, seen from different perspectives, what a forum is all about? I've been in this hobby a good many years--probably longer than most here--and even have some years of being involved on the industry side of the hobby. I don't particularly like what I see these days in terms of the direction things are heading, and I would be remiss if I simply stood by and watched without speaking up when I believe it is warranted.

And just for the record: I have NEVER predicted--here or anywhere else--"the end of the hobby." I have stated, in no uncertain terms, that I think the O gauge segment, in particular, is following a path these days that does not bode well for the future GROWTH of that niche (which does not imply its demise). The hobby itself will be around for far longer than anyone who visits this forum, regardless of their age, but at the rate it's going, it likely will become a shadow of what it has been in recent years. That's not something I want to see happen, but the writing is on the wall. If I'm wrong about this, then please do come back in 2015--or perhaps as early as 2010--and remind me how off-target I was. I will then freely and happily admit that I was completely wrong.