Transformer Suggestions Requested

[Jumijo]

I'm about to begin benchwork on an L-shaped layout made from 2 sheets of 4x8 plywood. I had planned to use the 3 CW-80s that came with three different Lionel sets I've purchased this year, but after what happened this week, I am soliciting suggestions for a new power source.

My kids have a Thomas set that they like to run. Since Christmas, this loco has worked flawlessly and has pulled as many as 10 freight cars , but Tuesday night I turned on the power and the loco didn't move. I tried again, same result. One more time, same thing, but this time I poked it with my finger and it took off. It got even weirder. The loco is LOCKED in the forward-only setting but the next time I turned on the power, it ran in reverse! It was also running sluggishly and hesitated a few times and the whistle function was sporadic. In addition, a Railsounds tender we have also refused to whistle more than once. There could very well be something wrong with the Thomas loco, but no sound from the tender leads me to believe it might be the transformer, which does not have a good reputation at all.

I'd like to get one transformer that's capable of running two or more trains at once. K-Line, MRC, MTH and Lionel are the ones I've heard of, but know little if any on dependability and price - my two biggest considerations.

Can any one provide advice or opinion on what transformer I might purchase?

Jim

P.S. Has anyone here ever taken apart a Thomas loco to lube its worm gear? I suspect that may be partially to blame for the hesitations and sluggishness.

[jonadel]

Jim,

I've had two MTH Z4000 for 5 years and have really enjoyed their reliabilty and user friendliness. You will certainly get lot's of opinions on this question, just go slow and be sure to think about future expansion plans.

Jon

[ChiefEagles]

Jon is right but if you don't have the $$$ right now, look at this.
http://ogaugerr.infopop.cc/eve/ubb.x/a/tpc/f/1961048701/m/6091021103
I know this guy and if he says its Ok, its OK. If you are interested, email me and I'll give you his number and you can call him. He had two for sale and I just bought the first one. Cheapest in latest TCA is $200 + shipping.

[Roger Bielen]

Another option is the Lionel ZW. I believe they come with 2 - 180W power houses (transformers) and you can add two more if needed. It also has TMCC capability.

[Anonymous]

I agree with Chief Eagles, a postwar ZW in good shape,as Marty's appear to be, are a good buy at $165 if one wants to control railpower (voltage level) with throttle handles.

Otherwise if planning to operate on TMCC with a Cab 1, a 180 watt output PowerHouse at about $90 is a better buy per watt of output but the voltage is fixed at 18v. unless you link it to a TPC.
[both the Lionel Platinum TPC and Lionel Celebration ZW are Track Power Controllers(TPCs) only---both are controllers that require adding a power source(s) such as 180 watt PoHOs]

The 270 watt [input] postwar ZWs have a net continous total output of about 180 watts on the secondary (railpower) side. You can certainly run two trains with a 180 watt [10 amp] output postwar ZW.

[ChiefEagles]

Correct on the new ZW but they cause trouble if you run DCS too. They also will act up if you try to run conventional by DCS. The old ZW's seem to work fine but should have quick acting circuit breakers or fuses between your electronics such as DCS. I built my own [from the OGR video] and they have worked great with my KW's. I have been running 8 motors in TMCC on one side of a KW while running 4 motors in DCS on the other side. No problems.

[Anonymous]

You can continously and easily run both a 11 car passenger train behind a SRR Ps-4 and a 10 car passenger train behind a N&W "J" (10 & 9 cars lighted) in the same power district (same track) supplied by a post war ZW. The two lighted trains draw from 7-1/2 to 8 amps at moderate speed.
I tried running the same two consists on a single 135 watt PowerHouse and usually tripped it after about 3 minutes operation.
I typically used cartridge fuse blocks or a 10 amp 4-channel "breaker box" to protect transformers. The Potter-Brumfield breakers have a rated trip time of 2 -14 seconds.

[3railguy]

Woo boy... My first thought was dirty track, dirty wheels, and/or a loose connection in or to the track. That could cause some of the symptoms you describe. You say you have three CW-80's? Have you swapped them to see if the problem persists? If so, I would suspect dirty track, loose connections, and/or faulty electronics in the engine and tender. Do you have all three CW-80's hooked up to your layout now? If so, are they phased? Improper phasing may cause this problem depending on how your track is arranged.

Murphy's law does allow multiple things to go wrong at once leading us to the wrong conclusion. Before you go off and buy a new transformer, deductive reasoning is needed here. I would take the easiest route first and try cleaning a section of track with good continutity to see if things improve. If not, I would then swap transformers to see if it's a transformer or engine/tender electronic problem.

If it does turn out to be the transformer, you have several options. Lionel's new ZW is a good choice for use with Lionel engines and TMCC. It also chops the sine wave for smoother running of older equipment. However, the whistles and horns in some engines by MTH or K-Line do not like the chopped sine wave. An MTH Z4000 will run anything but it isn't cheap. A Z750 will work but you may need more than one for a layout your size.

From what you described, you don't really need all the features the new big transformers offer. If you were running PS-2 triplexes and JLC challengers, then the new big transformers would be a good choice. Reconditioned vintage postwar ZW's are another option and a good one. They have come down in price because of the new ones. They have plenty of power for a layout your size and work well with MTH and most K-Line engines (some K-Line engines used an off spec horn relay that requires a K-Line controller). Postwar ZW's don't have all the electronics the new ones do and are less prone to failure like the new ZW and MTH Z4000. The postwar ZW is much easier to service than the new ones. Another good choice for postwar power is one or two LW 125 watt transformers. Postwar transformers also work with TMCC and DCS but you should add a fast blow breaker. If you are not inclined with transformers, a reconditioned model is a must because they are at an age now the internal wiring is likely to be brittle and prone to shorts.

[spankybird]

If you are going to buy an other transformer, then I would strongly recomand buying one that is a pure sine wave. This would include the Lionel postwar ZW and KW, MTH Z4000 and the MRC.

QUOTE: by 3railguy

Lionel's new ZW is a good choice for use with Lionel engines and TMCC. It also chops the sine wave for smoother running of older equipment. However, the whistles and horns in some engines by MTH or K-Line do not like the chopped sine wave. An MTH Z4000 will run anything but it isn't cheap.

John makes some very good points here. If you are planning on using any K-line or MTH engines, then I would stay away from the Lionel new ZW. Also if you are planning on ever going to DCS, I would also stay away from the Lionel new ZW because of the crop sine wave.

The cost of an MTH Z4000 is about the same as a new ZW. [^]

If you are going to buy one of the post war ZW or KW, then you will need to buy a bell button and should also add a breaker box to the lines.[;)]

tom

[Anonymous]

I'd go with a Z4000, or a prewar Z. It's just like a ZW, but it'll give more power to the posts if you use all four of them. A ZW will just stick with 250 volts no matter how many of the posts you use, hence a power loss.

[lionelsoni]

Zre, I don't understand your comments. Why not a postwar Z? I don't know what you mean about the posts: A Z will put out a total of 250 watts, a ZW 250 or 275, depending on the model. (Surely you mean "250 watts", not "250 volts".) Where is this power loss in a ZW?

[3railguy]

Not sure what ZRE means either. A prewar Z is 250 watts. Like you say, a postwar ZW is 250 and later 275 watts. with the prewar model, you run an even higher risk of faulty internal wiring due to age and the insulation used in those days. I've never has a Z apart. If it has 2 windings, that's 125 watts per side, limiting power to big pulls. Finding a prewar Z in good operating condition is not as easy as it may seem.

[ben10ben]

A Z can also easily put out 25 volts if you twist the knob a little bit too far compared with 20 volts of a ZW. Most newer electronic engines won't appreciate a shot of voltage that high, especially not sustained for a few minutes. In addition, for conventional operation, the Z is best avoided as you need to add in whistle controllers and reversing buttons.

The Z is a great transformer, but it has no place in modern conventional operation. It's best saved for running prewar O and standard gauge or for powering lights on a layout.

[Anonymous]

Post war transformers are rated by their input wattage on the primary side whereas "modern" transformers are rated by their output at the secondary.

The net output at the secondary of a post war 275 watt ZW is about 180 watts. I have three 275 ZWs that have all been reconditioned and the maximum output,at load, on a continous operating basis is barely 10 amps as recorded on the Aac Panel Meters or the more accurate Shop meter.

Due to heat the output efficiency of a ZW is only about 65% of it's input wattage.

[lionelsoni]

Both the Z (which was made both before and after the war) and the ZW are single transformers with multiple wipers. Lionel describes both as able to deliver 180 watts continuously.