nice outside 3rd rail article

[FJ and G]

in the latest CTT. Layout's been running for decades. Beautifully done. Great idea, if the pickup that sticks out both sides of the locomotive doesn't bother you.

I used to live near the New Haven line that had these outside 3rd rails.

Seems like he could have kept AC but for some reason he made the layout DC. I skimmed the article so I'll need to reread it to see why he did it.

Also, the rail code is a rather interesting one; I think 170 or something (most 3 rail tracks is about code 215).

[wrmcclellan]

Dave,

I agree. That is a great article. I wi***here had been more photos of the layout and equipment. Ellison's Delta Lines was also outside third rail and ran on DC (he used old passenger car batteries I believe). He did not explain why he used DC vs sticking with AC. Maybe the scale folks did not like the e-units and the constant buzz they make. With DC one simply reverses the polarity and off you go.

It would be nice when CTT finds some of these classic style layouts to get more photos for history. Maybe they could do a followup article or at least do an on-line article with the extra photos. I know the magazines fret that this photo or that photo don't have the right composition - but that really does not matter to me - I would like to see them anyway.

Regards,
Roy

[FJ and G]

Roy,

Did you see the background of the layout. Those relays and maze of switches are really something else?

I think a whole article on the electronics would be great. That could be one of the reasons he went to DC???? Purer sign wave? Remember, he built the system way before a lot of modern technology existed.

Unfortunately, most model train magazines are a bit shallow in their coverage of layouts. I'd much rather see an in-depth look at one layout that several layouts with shallow coverage.

[jkerklo]

I have been interested in outside third rail since I saw such a layout as a kid in downtown Pittsburgh. I thought it looked more prototypical than my 3-rail track.

Did any manufacturer ever make outside rail track or are all such layouts hand laid? I have noticed pickups on both sides of an engine, but were there pickups front and back as well? Otherwise, how would a crossing be done?

The choice of DC or AC might depend on timeframe. Remembering that the motors in our trains would run on AC or DC.

Early trains had to accommodate different house power systems: AC 60 Hz, AC 25 Hz, and DC (I think 32 volts). There are different rheostats intended for AC or DC operation.
Early transformers had taps, rather than wipers on the coil; e-units forced the change.

Before e-units, trains were reversed with a switch on the engine. With DC, trains could be reversed by reversing power to the track. My guess would be that DC was used for more prototypical control on a large layout.

John Kerklo
TCA 94-38455
www.Three-Rail.com

[lionelsoni]

Thirty-two volts was a standard for Wincharger windmill generators, along with 6 and 12 volts. In cities, houses were wired for dc at 110 and 220 volts. Lionel sold rheostats that could be used for either dc or ac at low voltages, and reducers intended for use with the higher voltages. They work very well but are exceedingly dangerous by modern standards.

The e-unit was an expedient to allow reversing of trains that used wound-field motors, which was all of them in the early days. Just changing to dc didn't eliminate the need for the e-unit. That had to wait for the development of practical permanent-magnet motors. An e-unit run on dc is perfectly quiet, however.

[FJ and G]

John K,

Looked at pictures and map and noticed there are no roads on the layout. Thus, no problem with corssings[:D]

Also, he indicated difficulty in the 2 outside pickups for diesels so he has steam, yet there's a little diesel pictures. My guess is either it is just a dummy diesel for show. It can't possibly run on DC since it doesn't have access to the 3rd outside rail. Or possibly battery powered?

Also, he designed both fixed and spring-loaded probes from locomotive to outside rail. How would the fixed probs work in breaks to the outside rail. Seems they would get hung up.

Don't mean to be critical. It's a great layout and his track looks a lot better than I ever can manage but I wi***here were a bit more content for explanations

[dougdagrump]

Isn't the layout that they do at Christmas in the Cininnati Gas and Electric Co. an outside third rail? I haven't seen it in MANY years so the memory might not be quite what it used to be. Maybe Buckeye or ben can be of help.

[overall]

Years ago now, late 80's I think , I bought some O gauge track switch templates from the NMRA that had the outside third rail on them. It was interesting I thought. They were meant as an aid for people hand laying track.

George

[wrmcclellan]

Dave,

The outside pickups are sprung. The brass ones with the "wings" have hinges and a small spring on the rear and are not shown in the photo. The one with the rod is made out of speedometer cable which is fairly rigid, yet flexible eneought to be ideal for this application. Looks like he added some solder or soldered some "shoes" on it for wear.

I have some old model railroading books and speedo cable appeared to be the most common arrangment for outside third rail pickups. It is cheap and if you remember on older cars, something you had to replace every few years. I always used to have some around.

The difficulty with the diesels is that the truck frame is lower and thus less room underneath to mount the outside pickup. Steam locos with their higher frames are relatively easy to get the pickup directly out to the side between the drivers.

Dave - I wonder if you will try this for your next layout?

Regards,
Roy

[FJ and G]

Roy,

Thanks for the explanation. And I thought speedos are things you wear!

I think it would be fun to experiment w/stud rail on a future layout, unless I'm modeling a RR that actually used the outside 3rd rails such as LI RR, NH, Metro North, and various subways

[overall]

It just seems like you are asking for contact problems with this approach. Isn't this arrangement hard to get "dialed in".

George

[TurboOne]

Hey guys what month is the outdoor layout in ? I looked on the website and don't see the article.

Tim