Some thoughts about K-Line trains

[brianel027]

Now before anyone jumps the train, this isn't any kind of attack on the other forum. I was over at OGR and reading the posting about "talking about K-Line." I was reading the thread and it was very obvious there are a lot of guys who really like the newer, scale proportioned K-Line product. Yes, there were one or two who have had problems, but this is always to be expected... different folks have different problems with all the different importers - for whatever reason.

There were a lot of comments on how K-Line has come a long way. But there were some also commenting on the so-called "junk" they used to make or the Marx copies that were once the bulk of the line. I've been hearing these kinds of comments for years... the older K-Line stuff is junk and the new stuff is much better. I've got a relative who has always called K-Line junk... and that I do so many alterations and repainting doesn't help change his opinion. But he's always coming from a solid Lionel-collector background.

My thinking is that there was nothing wrong with the types of trains K-Line once made nor is there anything wrong with the stuff they are making today. I think the same philosophy at K-Line applied then as it does now: to make trains that are affordable values on a quality comparison level to other products being made. Whether that be with more "toylike" trains or with more scale like trains that have appeal to the bulk of today's adult scale operators. There is though a market for both types of products, although K-Line has certainly received more accolades, praise (and probably sales) with the newer scale product.

I really like the now retired S-2 switcher K-Line once made (from Marx origins). No, it's not scale, but it's also not a bad looking switcher for traditional sized operators with smaller layouts. It ran reasonably well and is an easy and affordable candiate for improvements. And same goes for the Alco FA and the MP-15, though these other 2 models have shown up in recent years, though less prominently. I'd rather seen the S-2 back over the new low-end GP-9.

If anything qualified the older K-Line stuff as junk, it was the consistant problems they had with operation of the couplers and the problems with the front truck of the diesel locos (Alco FA, S-2 and MP-15) jumping off the track. Those were the 2 biggest problems.

Of course, they were also cutting corners trying to maximize profits too. The Reading MP-15 on the early Boscov's set was hideous with it's molded color base shell... it just looked cheap, even if it wasn't. The rolling stock was nearly all made with white styrene plastic, then painted (except for the early Marx type cars made in the US pre-1989). The insides of the box cars were never painted. Not a big deal, but when the doors are open on a brown box car, it looks like the job wasn't finished. Of course until the cabooses were primed with silver, they glowed like pumpkins. Rather than have the later added metal handrails and ladders on the box cars, I would have rather seen the insides of the cars painted. Or seen the box car retooled with the roof walk removed and the ladders shortened to replicate a more modern typle of box car. But saying you have "metal details" on your product makes more sense from an advertising point of view. Plus the postwar mentality that metal equals quality (which isn't always the case).

The jumping off the track problem is easily fixed by inserting a washer and a spring between the front truck and the frame. K-Line could have easily remedied this. The couplers are another matter. It was either a matter of going for the cheap, or poor quality control. The quality of the plastic trucks was all over the place. I've got cars from the US production period that work fine. Then later they didn't. The early sprung die-cast trucks needed to practically be slammed to couple. Even when the all metal assembly was introducted, the armature pin was too think, still causing the cars to be hit hard to couple shut. Certainly if K-Line's current product continued to have these same problems, I doubt there would be so many cheers and rave product reviews.

Some have always complained of the "jack-rabbit" starting and running of the early K-Line diesels (and probably the current Kid's-O line GP-9). But this is just a characteristic of the locos with truck mounted DC can motors. Similar Lionel locos will do the same thing. You can't run these diesels with postwar transformers that start off with a 6-8 volt setting, and not expect them to run off the track unless it's the 1033 (with the B-U post setting). You need to use a more modern transformer with a lower starting voltage.

But despite my quibbles here, early K-Line product offered some much needed competition for Lionel. Do a comparison of K-Line and Lionel catalogs from the early 1990's and see how Lionel starter sets improved because of K-Line. I wouldn't even be back in the hobby today if it weren't for the more affordable K-Line product. Of course, back in the early 1990's, K-Line was completely made in China whereas Lionel wasn't yet (at least totally... components were being made overseas even though the box said "Made in USA"). I personally heard that criticism of K-Line a lot back then, and said with a great deal of contempt.

I think the biggest mistake K-Line made in the early years was the near constant imitation of Lionel postwar roads. I think K-Line was trying to appeal to operators who wanted postwar Lionel box cars and such, but couldn't afford the collector prices. But most die hard Lionel guys were going to want Lionel product regardless. And it didn't take long for Lionel to start reissuing many of those items themselves. Instead of issuing black Erie Alcos and Rutland box cars, they should have hit on some more contemporary roads that might have appealed to the younger new modelers that were entering the hobby in droves during the late 1980's, early 1990's. Those unpainted green and brown PRR Alcos weren't going to have much appeal to any Lionel operator. It wasn't even the right green. Those should have been Conrail, CSX and Norfolk Southern. Molded color in blue, grey and black wouldn't have been so noticably wrong. They did once do a NS set (I believe for Boscov's though) and a CSX collection in 1990... maybe those items didn't sell? They should have given them another chance, as K-Line did with reissuing many of their own products (of course this is certainly a cost-saving move).

I'm sure K-Line noticed the success they had early on with the scale passenger cars and their intermodal spine cars. They were different, not being made and well received. As were the first issued all die-cast construction hoppers. I guess they just went where the money seemed to be going.

But saying the older stuff is junk is the same as calling their current lower end stuff junk. Or beginner Lionel stuff junk. Just because the product doesn't have scale proportions or details doesn't make it bad. Most folks aren't going to buy a scale sized $600 train engine for their kid. And there are adult modelers who might like to buy a $600 loco but can't. Or maybe the only time they do is when the item is a blowout.

The junk comment can also be aimed at Lionel with sets like the Contruction set, the Safari set, the N&W starter steam set and the RS-3 sets. But where the so-called junk comment really comes into play is when once considers the selling price. A low-end engine at $50 is one thing and probably acceptable: folks will look at the features and say "well what do you expect for the price." The same low-end product at double or triple the price is another story. Or the beginner starter Lionel cars which only a few years ago were unpainted molded plastic, single color logo/dimension printed and reeked of cheapness, until you noticed the price tag.

They're all trains. They're just marketed or intended for different audiences. And pleasing the ever demanding adult market is just as important as having some items to entice newcomers into the hobby or having some more affordable mid-range items that the average operator can afford.

It's funny how in many instances, quality today has come to mean scale proportions and junk has come to mean non-scale (except for the RMT "Beeps, " Williams and the now defunct Industrial Rail).

Just some thoughts from someone who's been running (and still runs) non-scale K-Line "junk" from almost the very beginning. Funny thing too, the junk still works and runs.

[bigwally]

My only gripe about K-Line is their rotten delivery schedule!

For me, K-line is the reason I entered O gauge. As an avowed GG-1 freak, the 2001 KCC membership premium of a GG-1 for $100 was too good to pass up and I wound up with one in tuscan and green!

I don't care about scale and I don't care about rivets. I'm an O-gauger on a budget and K-Line and their Collectors Club has kept my interest growing in the hobby. To that end, my roundhouse includes two GG-1s, an A5 0-4-0, and FM Trainmaster, a Plymouth, and two B&O F7s. Other than two Lionel steamers (one pre-war and one post war) and a couple Beeps, K-Line is the only manufacturer who makes anything I can afford! I've heard the stories and seen some of their early stuff, but I'm fortunate I've come along when K-Line is making good stuff at a great prices.

Now if that EP-5 would just get here soon, I can maybe get it broken in before my KCC SD75 arrives...[:D]

As Tom Petty sang, "The waiting is the hardest part." Think he was talking about K-Line?????

bigwally

[Anonymous]

Hello All: What would the world be without competition? Did K-Line, M.T.H.,Williams, Atlas, cause Lionel to blink? I personally think they did. What level of quality,or price point would we have without an alternative? Let me compare it to other market's we are all familiar with. Remember the Auto Industry in the 70's, the paint was darn near blowing off as you drove down the Highway, If you went back for warranty work the North American Big three always tried to weasel out of it. Then along came the Asian Imports with their JUNK. We all Laughed along with the big three figuring they would never last. But what did they do? They went back to the drawing board & came back with a better product, excellent warranties. We started to notice when the big three started to lay off & cut staff from the boardroom on down, we were not laughing anymore. The big three finally had to come back with better product, fuel efficiency, & warranties that were worth more than a smile & a handshake. Are we better off? We have more choice & selection than ever before. Is competition good for the Train world? I say yes, besides it sure makes great conversation. Kind Regard's to All Steve

[Dave Farquhar]

At this point I may have more Marx stuff than anything else. People who call Marx (and by extension, K-Line) "junk" need to be ready to take it when a true scale modeler, whether in O (real O SCALE--with 2-rail track and DC operation) or another scale, takes issue with the third rail, or the track being five scale feet wide, or the trucks being too tall, or the couplers being too big, and calls their beloved trains "junk." Which some will. But the funny thing is, most 2-rail O scalers I know are too busy having fun with their hobby to throw bricks at people who enjoy something else. Imagine that.

Scale realism and detail are nice, but they aren't necessarily the only thing people look for, and people who have other priorities shouldn't have to defend their decision. If someone wants to run O27 curves because they want a large train but don't have room for O72, he or she shouldn't have to defend the decision.

Elitism is the most annoying thing in most hobbies, and that's certainly the case in this one.

I don't have a lot of K-Line, but I'm glad to see the Marx tooling is being used to make affordable trains, just like in the '50s. K-Line has just started up a line of affordable S gauge trains based on the Marx tooling. Marx O27 was very close to 1:64 scale so it's a fairly good fit. Sometimes a car is a few scale feet too long or too tall or too wide, so some people don't like them, but the consensus seems to be that they're glad K-Line is making something durable and inexpensive in their scale. I agree.

[lionelsoni]

I will repeat my posting from about a year ago about my problems with K-Line, having to do with bad zinc castings:

I am currently down on K-Line. Here are some excerpts from a previous topic that I started ("Rotten K-Line trucks") that will explain why:

I just finished rebuilding a K-Line truck whose transom and drawbar casting crumbled, using the leftover casting from another truck whose sideframes disintegrated some time back. I am pretty sure this is the same problem that plagues the zinc castings of many prewar trains and, I have read, was caused by impurities in the zinc.

Does anyone else out there have similar experience with K-Line castings?
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...the trucks comprise three casting types: sideframes (2), transom and drawbar, and bolster (no spring plank). In the first instance, only the sideframe castings disintegrated; in the second case, only the transom-drawbar casting. Yet all the pieces of each truck had the same thermal history.
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yes I purchased one a few months ago that was manufactured in the mid 90's. When i got it home i tested the couplers and one of knuckles flew off, the dealer replaced the coupler.I don't know what year your car was from but it seems that the ones made in the 90's have casting problems. I live in pa and the sun always shines here.
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Well, it happened again. I got out a couple of K-Line MKT piggyback trailers that I hadn't seen in a couple of years (model 6640). The roof castings are swollen and flaking apart. The rest of the models look just fine, however.

I just found an internet reference that says that lead, tin, or cadmium are the culprit impurities:
http://www.eazall.com/brochures/Zinc%20Alloy%20Composition%20&%20Control.pdf
--------------------
...I'm pretty sure that the problem is impurities in the zinc and surprised that a modern manufacturer would still have trouble with that. See
http://www.corrosion-doctors.org/MatSelect/corrzinc.htm

[FJ and G]

The best things l like about K-Line are prices and diecast and aluminum offerings. Also the Plymouth switcher.

The only puzzle I have w/K-line is their new GP38, which goes for $400. It is pricier than MTH and Lionel's. Can't determine why that is except possibly it has a die-cast body, which is nice.

[Anonymous]

I love the scale aluminum hoppers and tank cars. They are priced the same as MTh plastic hoppers. Their coil cars are also nice too. I buy all the hoppers and tank cars I can from Kline. I have a lot of their intermodal stock as well. I do worry about the paint on their aluminum cars. I don't want it to peel off. One problem I noticed about kline is the couplers. Sometimes the kline couplers won't close. It only happens with other rolling stock. When I try to couple a kline piece to a lionel engine or mth piece. Overall great detail and value from kline.

[laz 57]

I just bought K-lines Berkshire about two weeks ago and really love it . It has aslow start up but looks and sounds like a real steamer going through the phases of true running the tracks. I also like the slow down sequence that is doesn't stop real fast and that too looks and sounds the realistic part of a steamer. The sound system is great and I can not fault K-line on any thing that they did except for the price. I got mine when a rep from K-line was selling his and got it for a real good price. Now I am checking out one of there Shays and would like to find out more bout them. I watched the video on CTT and was impressed. Anyone out there know anything bout the SHAY of K-line?
laz57

[Anonymous]

K-line shay... lousy thing. Small motor, The speaker gets too hot and sound gets baffled. Smoke unit is leaky all over the place.

[laz 57]

CHRIS do you have one?
laz57

[jimhaleyscomet]

I also like K-line. Especially their 027 track and remote switches which are very reliable.

I think K-line, MTH, and Lionel should all take a note from the American and Asian car maker experiance and keep some focus on the least expensive lines. It seems established businesses are always willing to give up the lower end of the market and focus on the high end where margins are higher. When they do that, however, a new upstart comes along. First they take the bottom of the market, then the middle, and then head for the top (think Honda-Accura, Toyota-Lexus). As a matter of fact that is what K-line is doing right now. Let's hope they keep some focus on the least expensive lines where most O gaugers start!

Jim H

[Anonymous]

Laz, I HAD one

[baltimoretrainworks]

The bulk of my freight cars are K-Line. I really like thier 6464 type boxcars since the original Lionels were a bit too expensive for me, $15 to $30 for a boxcar is a good price $100 and up is hard to justify. Now thier tankcars and hoppers left a lot to be desired but they have really improved since the "old" days.
I too get grief from scale guys and diehard Lionel guys but the bottom line is I'm not recreating the world in miniture nor am I a Lionel sycophant I just like running trains!

[brianel027]

A variety of comments above as I thought there might be. As bigwally illustrates, the KCC is probably one of the more brilliant moves K-Line has made. National media advertising is expensive, so why not try to entice the already established Lionel buyers into buying your product? I'm sure that line of thinking was in part behind the KCC. I remember when folks thought the KCC MP-15 for $45 was a fabulous deal. But 2 years later came the GG1 and now other scale models at hard to beat prices. The KCC deliveries have always been slow. There's no doubt that K-Line uses the initial slew of membership dollars to help pay for the production. The slow deliveries have always been a complaint.

Bob's comments about the truck castings (and I was thinking of him when I wrote the initial thread) I think also illustrate what I was saying about going for the cheap. I've had a few trucks break apart as Bob mentions. It's mostly the poor coupling though that I think has annoyed many operators. I've been able to fix many of my own cars, but in an ideal world, the customer should not have to make these kinds of basic repairs
on something out of the box. And I'm sure there are many who don't and just turn to buying another brand.

As a side note, the trucks on the Train-19 cars seem to be the best ones K-Line has made and I actually prefer those over most others. Too bad it took so many years for it to happen.

I think the other comments by Steve, Dave F., Jim and Baltimore show that there is still a group of modelers who appreciate more basic types of products. The hobby may be moving in a direction where the more upper level products receive all the attention and the vast bulk of commentary, but there is still a market for basic affordable trains.

It's kind of like with the tyoes of layouts shown in the train magazines: guys with the expansive, big layouts obviously would be more willing to show them off in a feature article. The layouts are impressive. The magazine editors know this and the readers know this too. There are many I'm sure who "ooh and ah" at the layouts and wi***heir own layouts could be as large and as nice.

There are though, many more who have smaller, less impressive layouts who might not be as willing or proud to show off the layouts. It may take years to actually get the layout finished due to other responsibilities (both time-wise and financial). I'm sure there also exists the general feeling of "why would anyone want to see my 4'x8' or my 8'x12' layout?" Chances are that the folks building these smaller layouts are not purchasing the top line train products, nor buying them in bulk. Or placing large orders for new trains every month or two. Nor might they be posting a topic on the train forums every time they buy a loco or a train car... I can imagine the guy who just made his once in a while purchase of a Train-19 car isn't going to make a big announcement about it on one of the train forums. Yet they are still customers and still do buy trains.

It's nice that there is still some new product for these modelers and buyers. And since Train-19 selection has somewhat languished in the past couple of years I'm really glad Lionel has added some modern roads (CSX Waffle box, NS hopper and BNSF ore car) to their line of basic starter cars. Though I notice the Train-19 Conrail box car now has a new product number... could this mean they are making a different color version? A brown or tuscan one? Even Penn Central green? I hope.

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by laz 57

I just bought K-lines Berkshire about two weeks ago and really love it . It has aslow start up but looks and sounds like a real steamer going through the phases of true running the tracks. I also like the slow down sequence that is doesn't stop real fast and that too looks and sounds the realistic part of a steamer. The sound system is great and I can not fault K-line on any thing that they did except for the price. I got mine when a rep from K-line was selling his and got it for a real good price. Now I am checking out one of there Shays and would like to find out more bout them. I watched the video on CTT and was impressed. Anyone out there know anything bout the SHAY of K-line?
laz57

Hello Laz57,

I saw the K-line Shay in operation on one of the layouts at my local Hobby shop. It ran beautifully! The main repairman at the store told me the stock locomotive had problems stalling on switches. Ross custom in this case. He added two additional pickup rollers and has had no further problems.

Dave

[laz 57]

Thanks DAVE,
I am going to ask my train guy to put it on the test track and run it for 5-10 minutes to see how it runs on the switches. Thanks for the heads up.
laz57

[lionelsoni]

It happened again. The sideframe of a K-Line truck, already a replacement for the original sideframe, fell apart. Having no more salvaged K-Line sideframes, I replaced both trucks by Lionel lookalikes and thus replenished my stock of K-Line castings, ready for the next disintegration.

[lionelsoni]

I got this by e-mail from Brianel:

"Bob, I sympathize with your frustration about K-Line trucks. I saw your last posting on the K-Line thread and was wondering if these trucks that came apart were of the older variety or sone of the newer "Timken" stype they use on their Train-19 products? Just curious. K-Line truck quality has been all over the place, but I think these new ones on the Train-19 cars are the best they've done so far - at least by my experience."

"Take care. Brianel"

These must be "the older variety" that you referred to. The latest failure was on a 9100 UP express car. However, contaminated zinc is never going to be evident on a new piece, since it seems to take at least a few years for it to go bad.

[Jumijo]

I'm one of those guys who only occassionally buys rolling stock, and when I do, it's not the expensive stuff. I've been interested in purchasing a Train-19 freight car of some sort because of the price, as well as to compare with my Lionel, MTH, and IR stock.

So, is K-Line's Train-19 rolling stock worth considering, or should I stay with MTH Railkings and Lionel starters?

Jim

[FJ and G]

brienel,

Whether I agree w/you opinions or not, you put a lot of effort into explaining them. Must be the writer in you. Always a pleasure reading.

[Anonymous]

My experience to date with K-Line has been my scale Mikado, which I bought about 1 year ago. I love this engine! The sound is incredible, even if it's just generic railsounds steam, and it does start out pretty slowly, even without cruise control. And the level of detailing is awesome. I want to upgrade it to EOB one of these days. And I'm thinking of getting a scale Hudson, which came out at the same time.

I may get some of their rolling stock one of these days. Time will tell.

As far as I know, K-Line's pretty good. But I only have a single data point to go by.

Tony

[Anonymous]

I have in the past bought K-line trains, some of which were scale passenger cars. They had some problems but I dealt with them. Many people I know would have called them junk for these problems. That quality of the past is more what I think people are referring to, not as much whether scale or non scale is junk. I suspect the newer stuff is better constructed and it just so happens that more of the newer stuff is scale as well. If the trucks were falling off of the bottom of the cars, and the wires were burning at the rollers as they did on my cars from the past, we'd be hearing about K-line junk today as well.